14 Feb 05
Originally posted by VargI've never heard the word sectarianism in any context as far as I can remember.
Is Scottish Sectarianism something that people from outside the UK have heard of?
Obviously sectarianism in Northern Ireland is known around the world, presumably for the violence and long-running nature.
Currently the Scottish parliament are debating sectarianism.
14 Feb 05
Originally posted by VargScottish sectarianism mostly has to do with the fitba no?
Is Scottish Sectarianism something that people from outside the UK have heard of?
Obviously sectarianism in Northern Ireland is known around the world, presumably for the violence and long-running nature.
Currently the Scottish parliament are debating sectarianism.
D
14 Feb 05
1 edit
The football (ie Celtic vs Rangers) is just a manifestation of the Catholic vs Protestant antogonisms we have here. Its really just an overflow from Ireland (I recently heard an Irish comedian refer to Glasgow as Belfast-lite).
The governmant is trying to address it (which is a step in the right direction, I suppose - at least they acknowledge it exists), but the problem is more deep-seated than just football rivalries.
We still have separate catholic schools, for example, and the catholic church has a reasonable amount of political clout.
Its really only a problem in the West of Scotland - Glasgow and surounding areas.
14 Feb 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Redmikei don't really agree with the church bit-i think it's more a group thing, like "i support rangers haha! you can't be our friends is you don't, and if you support celtic you're dead! muahaha" - very few celtic supporters i know either have been to a catholic school (there was one just around the corner from my old school) and very very few supporters go to church. and those who o are generally not the ones spilling the blood. although i came across an orange hall the other day?...
The football (ie Celtic vs Rangers) is just a manifestation of the Catholic vs Protestant antogonisms we have here. Its really just an overflow from Ireland (I recently heard an Irish comedian refer to Glasgow as Belfast-lite).
The govern ...[text shortened]... a problem in the West of Scotland - Glasgow and surounding areas.
14 Feb 05
Originally posted by geniusI don't think any of the nutcases attend church. But every working class kid in Glasgow knows whether they are a catholic or protestant. And most don't attend either church. In this part of the world being a catholic or a protestant has very little to do with actually going to church.
i don't really agree with the church bit-i think it's more a group thing, like "i support rangers haha! you can't be our friends is you don't, and if you support celtic you're dead! muahaha" - very few celtic supporters i know either have been to a catholic school (there was one just around the corner from my old school) and very very few supporters go ...[text shortened]... nerally not the ones spilling the blood. although i came across an orange hall the other day?...
Are you serioulsy saying you don't think there's a catholic-Celtic and protestant-Rangers link?
14 Feb 05
2 edits
Originally posted by RedmikeThere is that undoubted connection of Celtic=Catholic and Rangers=Protestant. I think the point being made was that although people identify themselves as either Catholic or Protestant that it is no longer a religious designation, but rather a cultural identification.
I don't think any of the nutcases attend church. But every working class kid in Glasgow knows whether they are a catholic or protestant. And most don't attend either church. In this part of the world being a catholic or a protestant has v ...[text shortened]... 't think there's a catholic-Celtic and protestant-Rangers link?
The vast majority of people probably do not understand the origins/reasons behind the rivalry beyond a very basic interpretation. Nowadays the perpetuation of the Catholic vs Protestant digression is achieved not through actual cultural or social differences, but is rather achieved through inculcation.
That the most visual representation of this is through a football rivalry is unsurpirising, as, in modern [British] society, sport is one of the few remaining areas where competition exists between cities or sections of a city. Outside of football (or other sports) there is very little scope for rivalries to be perpetuated, other than the formulation of terrorist groups - i.e. the IRA
14 Feb 05
Originally posted by VargIn a way Scotland's sectarian divide is the same as Northern Ireland's: most of the Protestant sects in Ulster were brought over by Scots migrating to the region, while most of the Catholics in Scotland are descended from Irish migrants, many of whom would have come from Ulster. Over the centuries there's been an awful lot of migration between Ulster and south-western Scotland: after all, the original 'Scotti' came to Great Britain (in present-day terms) by moving from County Antrim to Argyll!
Is it true to an extent that some of the origins of Scottish sectariansm lies in the fact that the catholics are immigrants (descendants of by now of course), as well religious differences (which were probably greater when religion played a bigger part in people's lives)?
14 Feb 05
Originally posted by sasquatch672British colonial policy was to Divide and Conquer. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland; Hindus and Muslims in India; Sunni and Shia in the Middle East. I believe the aim was to keep your enemies/subjects fighting each other so they would not be fighting you!
I wasn't aware that Scots migrated to Ireland's Northern Counties; I was under the impression that a series of English monarchs populated Northern Ireland with gentried settlers. Thank you for that enlightening bit of knowledge. I was also unaware that Scot Catholics were originally Irish.
I think an interesting point to be made is the differen ...[text shortened]... ave them the experience to be able to divide two peoples with so much vested in an alliance.
Mark
14 Feb 05
Originally posted by mmanuelAbsolutely correct.
British colonial policy was to Divide and Conquer. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland; Hindus and Muslims in India; Sunni and Shia in the Middle East. I believe the aim was to keep your enemies/subjects fighting each other so they would not be fighting you!
Mark
However, the protestants are to blame.