Shocking video about the REAL situation in Gaza

Originally posted by Seitse
I really see no condemnation of the cowardly strategy
of hiding behind women and kids. That's the only crime
in this while thing.

Of course, not that I was expecting it from a tiny mind.

Oh dear, another of the lies waiting to be refuted. Here we go:

This is arguably one of Israel's most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in 2008. Notwithstanding its military cartoon sketches, Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools, the schools were empty. UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity.

International human rights organizations that have investigated these claims have determined that they are not true. It attributed the high death toll in Israel's 2006 war on Lebanon to Israel's indiscriminate attacks. Human Rights Watch notes:

The evidence Human Rights Watch uncovered in its on-the-ground investigations refutes [Israel's] argument…we found strong evidence that Hezbollah stored most of its rockets in bunkers and weapon storage facilities located in uninhabited fields and valleys, that in the vast majority of cases Hezbollah fighters left populated civilian areas as soon as the fighting started, and that Hezbollah fired the vast majority of its rockets from pre-prepared positions outside villages.

In fact, only Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel's incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.

Even assuming that Israel's claims were plausible, humanitarian law obligates Israel to avoid civilian casualties that "would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated." A belligerent force must verify whether civilian or civilian infrastructure qualifies as a military objective. In the case of doubt, "whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used."

In the over thee weeks of its military operation, Israel has demolished 3,175 homes, at least a dozen with families inside; destroyed five hospitals and six clinics; partially damaged sixty-four mosques and two churches; partially to completely destroyed eight government ministries; injured 4,620; and killed over 700 Palestinians. At plain sight, these numbers indicate Israel's egregious violations of humanitarian law, ones that amount to war crimes.

Beyond the body count and reference to law, which is a product of power, the question to ask is, What is Israel's end goal? What if Hamas and Islamic Jihad dug tunnels beneath the entirety of the Gaza Strip—they clearly did not, but let us assume they did for the sake of argument. According to Israel's logic, all of Gaza's 1.8 million Palestinians are therefore human shields for being born Palestinian in Gaza. The solution is to destroy the 360-kilometer square strip of land and to expect a watching world to accept this catastrophic loss as incidental. This is possible only by framing and accepting the dehumanization of Palestinian life. Despite the absurdity of this proposal, it is precisely what Israeli society is urging its military leadership to do. Israel cannot bomb Palestinians into submission, and it certainly cannot bomb them into peace.

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
Odd how on this site the "liberals" seem to be so anti-Israeli (anti-jew).
What's up with that?

Many Jews are anti-Israeli. The concepts are quite different. The reasons many "liberals" are opposed to Israel's behaviour are set out in great detail and unless you have a reasonable and well supported counter argument then go away (please) because your contributions are just unpleasant without having any sibstance.

uiOriginally posted by finnegan
Oh dear, another of the lies waiting to be refuted. Here we go:

This is arguably one of Israel's most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in 2008. Notwithstanding its mili ...[text shortened]... to peace.

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

Are you going to keep copy pasting from a propaganda site?

I can also do that, you know, as a subscriber of the Jerusalem Post.

I prefer to have my own thoughts rather than copy pasting others though 😵

P.S. Quick, copy paste something related to the billions sent to Gaza
diverted into the war machinery of the Antisemites. Quick! Quick!

Originally posted by sh76
That is incorrect.

While economic sanctions were imposed following Hamas' taking power in 2006 (and not just by Israel), the [b]blockade didn't start until June of 2007, which followed a month of May in which something like 100 rockets were launched from Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Blockade_timeline_2007-2010

http: ...[text shortened]... all the time while blockade is an act of war. Surely it is imprecise to ignore this distinction.[/b]

The list of rockets is a fair comment I agree and a component of the story. The story is complex. I do not agree that we can simplify things into the terms you offer and remember the accounts I give are not personal to me. So it is not me you are disagreeing with but rather the sources which I gave you. What follows is selected from different Wiki articles and I tried to get it brief enough.

The 2006–2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority were economic sanctions imposed by Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East against the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian territories following the January 2006 legislative elections that brought Hamas to power.

The international sanctions were terminated in June 2007 following the Battle of Gaza, while at the same time a new and more severe blockade was initiated by Israel against Gaza.

The Battle of Gaza, also referred to as Hamas' takeover of Gaza was a short military conflict between Fatah and Hamas, that took place in the Gaza Strip between 10 and 15 June 2007. It was a climax in the Fatah–Hamas conflict, centered around the struggle for power, after Fatah lost the parliamentary elections of 2006. Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip[3] and removed Fatah officials. The battle resulted in the dissolution of the unity government and the de facto division of the Palestinian territories into two entities, the West Bank governed by the Palestinian National Authority, and Gaza governed by Hamas.

In an April 2008 article in Vanity Fair magazine, the journalist David Rose published confidential documents, apparently originating from the US State Department, which would prove that the United States collaborated with the Palestinian Authority and Israel to attempt the violent overthrow of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and that Hamas pre-empted the coup. The documents suggest that a government with Hamas should meet the demands of the Middle East Quartet, otherwise President Mahmoud Abbas should declare a state of emergency, which effectively would dissolve the current unity government, or the government should collapse by other means.[29][30] Rose quotes former Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief Middle East adviser David Wurmser, accusing the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

I really am not a Hamas fan or supporter by the way. But Hamas is simply not capable of providing a full explanation for what has been happening. Quite often their knee jerk and simplistic approach makes them wide open to being manipulated into situations and postures that suit the puppet masters. That certainly includes Iran as well as Israel. But there is only one major power, armed and funded by the USA, that really has the resources and the power and the capacity to determine the outcomes here and that, as you know, is Israel.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Nobody cares what you prefer 😉

Originally posted by Seitse
Are you going to keep copy pasting from a propaganda site?

I can also do that, you know, as a subscriber of the Jerusalem Post.

I prefer to have my own thoughts rather than copy pasting others though 😵

P.S. Quick, copy paste something related to the billions sent to Gaza
diverted into the war machinery of the Antisemites. Quick! Quick!

Are you going to keep copy pasting from a propaganda site?

The sites I quote from are always referenced in my post so that you can verify not only that the quotes are accurate but also the credibility of the sources. The sources are diverse you will find and only a few would be considered very partial - for example the blog I have used lately makes no claim to be neutral. I have used Jewish sites - for example when I checked out the Law of Return - and American newspapers. Generally I do look for some basis of credibility in what I quote.

It is normal and good practice in discussing a complex topic to do some research and to rely on trustworthy sources. Many people appreciate this. I can think for example of Visted (is that correct? sorry) making a serious point of wanting to know my sources and check them out for himself. ATY made use of his sources to copy and paste his side of an argument with me in the past day or so. SH76 referred me to a number of links just a few posts back, I checked them out and I commented on one of them in my reply. It is simply normal.

However, it is false to suggest that I fail to express my own opinions or that I have none other than propaganda. Instead, I support what I say with materials that demonstrate I have a good basis for it. I think you will agree that "propaganda" is a term that cannot apply to every source you disagree with, but really refers only to dishonest material produced to deceive people. Well I give my sources and I invite you to refute what they say - that is how we avoid being deceived.

You on the other hand seem to wish to be deceived - you have no wish to hear the truth or to debate critically. You have nothing useful to say and your opinions are vicious.

Originally posted by Seitse
Nobody cares what you prefer 😉

Seitse, you are not impressing with your offensive posts and to the extent that you are associated with one side of this argument - a defender of the Israeli attacks against the Palestinians - you are making sure to harm your own side in the debate. How is poor old SH76 supposed to put together a credible line of defence when he is cursed with allies like you? I can quite see why he just opts out for such long periods. You really are just a tadpole.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Your final point is good but your opening point is even better. Looking around the Middle East it must be dawning on the American establishment that things can be worse. The more they support the oppression of the Palestinian people and the longer they defer justice, the more havoc they will inevitably wreak. That just leaves us to deal with the nuts planning for the Rapture of course, of whom Bush may have been one. They quite like havoc and, of course, if it all goes wrong they are a long distance away and can sacrifice their allies (again).

Originally posted by finnegan
I really am not a Hamas fan or supporter by the way. But Hamas is simply not capable of providing a full explanation for what has been happening. Quite often their knee jerk and simplistic approach makes them wide open to being manipulated into situations and postures that suit the puppet masters. That certainly includes Iran as well as Israel. But there is ...[text shortened]... and the power and the capacity to determine the outcomes here and that, as you know, is Israel.

One major power? Yes.

One player that has the "the capacity to determine the outcomes here"? No, I think Hamas has the capacity to determine outcomes.

I don't think there's anything inherent about the ME conflict that precludes peace. I think long term peace was fairly close at Camp David and Taba and that the historical accident of Arafat being there rather than say, Abbas, may have cost tens of thousands of lives and decades of strife in the long run. Egypt made peace with Israel and the Palestinians can do the same. I'm not saying none of the blame lies with Israel, but Hamas control more of its own destiny than you're giving it credit for.