Shocking video about the REAL situation in Gaza

Originally posted by shavixmir
I totally agree with you.

What the hell is wrong with people?
Children are being murdered. And it doesn't matter what the hell Hamas, terrorists, or whoever is doing what... DON'T KILL BLOODY CIVILIANS!

And the whole: "we told them to get out." rubbish is rubbish.
Gaza is half the size of New York city with 1.5 million people living in what can ...[text shortened]... UN buildings are being bombed by the Israeli's.

Where the hell are people supposed to go???

Actually the solution is simple: stop shooting missiles at Israeli citizens and digging tunnels into their country and they will not have to defend themselves.

Originally posted by quackquack
Actually the solution is simple: stop shooting missiles at Israeli citizens and digging tunnels into their country and they will not have to defend themselves.

Keep in mind that the Palestinian solution has always been only one thing: The total elimination of the State of Israel and all Jews. Not much room for negotiation when that is your steadfast objective.

Originally posted by Phranny
Keep in mind that the Palestinian solution has always been only one thing: The total elimination of the State of Israel and all Jews. Not much room for negotiation when that is your steadfast objective.

Totally agree.

Originally posted by Phranny
Keep in mind that the Palestinian solution has always been only one thing: The total elimination of the State of Israel and all Jews. Not much room for negotiation when that is your steadfast objective.

I'm not sure I'd ascribe that to all Palestinians and I do think people like Machmoud Abbas would be open to negotiate a fair 2 state solution.

Hamas, of course, openly calls for the total destruction of the Jewish State which is quite clear from its own charter (http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html). Negotiation with even Hamas are possible, IMO, but it's much more difficult to negotiate with parties whose views are informed by religious extremism.

Originally posted by shavixmir
I totally agree with you.

What the hell is wrong with people?
Children are being murdered. And it doesn't matter what the hell Hamas, terrorists, or whoever is doing what... DON'T KILL BLOODY CIVILIANS!

And the whole: "we told them to get out." rubbish is rubbish.
Gaza is half the size of New York city with 1.5 million people living in what can ...[text shortened]... UN buildings are being bombed by the Israeli's.

Where the hell are people supposed to go???

It's a problem, Shav. I understand that. We've had it out about Israel-Palestine in the past and I believe that your views are informed by humanitarianism, not prejudice or anti-Semitism. I also hope that you will acknowledge that my views, while perhaps informed by some innate prejudice of being born Jewish, are not informed by religious doctrine, racism or blood thirstiness.

The problem is that sometimes there's just no other way than taking actions that have the potential unintended side effect of killing civilians.

I also feel bad for the Palestinian civilians. I feel terrible for them. I really do. Not because they're starving (they're not) or because they live in squalor (they don't - especially compared to similarly situated civilians in Arab countries) but because they don't have the opportunity to grow and to produce. Their economy is reliant on foreign aid and they're not able to build great universities and exporting firms and production apparati. They have food and shelter, but they have no sense of purpose and self-respect. Their reported unemployment rate is over 30% and God know what the real unemployment rate is.

I suppose it's only natural that Hamas' platform appeals to them. Religious extremism, while laughable to most of the civilized world, at least gives them a sense of purpose. Something to fight is at least something to do and beats having nothing to do.

So, who's at fault here? I think it's partially Israel, but mostly Hamas. If Hamas would stop firing missiles and attacking Israel in various ways, Israel would end the blockade. Do I KNOW this for certain? Of course not. But I think it's likely true. Israel did not start the blockade until years after the 2005 withdrawal. Hamas attacks caused the blockade, which caused more Hamas attacks, which caused a tighter blockade, which cases war.

So, why do I think it's at all Israel's fault? Because Israel could try harder to negotiate a good faith 2 state solution. I think most Israelis want a 2 state solution and I think that most Palestinians and much of its WB leadership, wants a 2 state solution. I don't think Hamas wants anything short of Biblical victory, though it might be possible to convince them to take a long term truce.

The point is that the civilian deaths are a consequence of the war and the incredible eagerness of Hamas to use human shields, directly and indirectly (by setting up rocket launching sites in schools and residential areas). The further point is that it's not just that simple to say that civilian deaths are inherently the fault of the side that inflicts them. Israel has a responsibility to try to minimize civilian deaths and they're certainly doing do far more effectively than the carriers out of Hamburg, Dresden and Hiroshima.

Like a gathering of snakes under a stone, all the discussion in other threads is discarded as too much trouble for your tiny minds and you set up a racist chorus of abuse and lies to deafen all protests on behalf of the civilians being systematically murdered by the IDF.

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

Here is yet another refutation of your lies, carefully presented under the heading of "Five Israeli Talking Points debunked." Will this evidence be considered in order to balance your abusive arguments? No. You will ignore the evidence because you lack the ability as well as the honesty to present and defend a coherent and defensible moral argument.

Fact is that the obscene military technology you drooled over in the first post on this thread - so much of which America supplies - is indicative of the appalling power available to the IDF and there is no evidence of accountability or responsible use of that weaponry, not least because the USA vetoes UN action. For the Palestinians to present any resistance at all to that immense disparity in the level of force available to their oppressors is astonishing.

Originally posted by sh76
I'm not sure I'd ascribe that to all Palestinians and I do think people like Machmoud Abbas would be open to negotiate a fair 2 state solution.

Hamas, of course, openly calls for the total destruction of the Jewish State which is quite clear from its own charter (http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html). Negotiation with even Hamas are possible, I ...[text shortened]... s much more difficult to negotiate with parties whose views are informed by religious extremism.

it's much more difficult to negotiate with parties whose views are informed by religious extremism

Like Zionists do you mean?

Originally posted by quackquack
I believe racism is the crux of the issue. I live in the United States and if anyone group a missile into my country there would be no doubt that without any discussion and concern for collateral damage the group would be eliminated immediately. I cannot fault any country for striking back to protects its citizens.

That's not really racism, is it?
It's self defense.

Originally posted by normbenign
You are beyond contempt. A wimp who kicks sand in the face of a powerful adversary deserves what he gets. The real question, that you avoid is who is really responsible for the loss of life?

Norm, I have engaged in detailed debates with you on a range of topics. This childish tantrum of your's is beneath your usual piss poor standard.

Originally posted by finnegan

it's much more difficult to negotiate with parties whose views are informed by religious extremism

Like Zionists do you mean?

Zionism is not a religious doctrine. The founders of the concept of Zionism and the founders of the state of Israel were not religious at all.

Even to the extent that religion does inform Zionism, it's hardly an extremist variety.

Originally posted by sh76
I'm not sure I'd ascribe that to all Palestinians and I do think people like Machmoud Abbas would be open to negotiate a fair 2 state solution.

Hamas, of course, openly calls for the total destruction of the Jewish State which is quite clear from its own charter (http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html). Negotiation with even Hamas are possible, I ...[text shortened]... s much more difficult to negotiate with parties whose views are informed by religious extremism.

Agree. All Palestinians do not want the complete destruction of Israel and Jews. However, a significant minority of Muslims throughout the world are violent and seek the destruction of all non-Muslim humans. Peace loving Muslims are in the majority when it comes to numbers but they are in the minority when it comes to the control of weapons. Perhaps Nazi Germany was a similar situation. I doubt the majority of Germans were in favor of the extermination of over 6 million Jews, Romas, homosexuals and mentally and physically disabled individuals. However, the minority had control of the government and the weapons. The rest is history.

Originally posted by sh76
Zionism is not a religious doctrine. The founders of the concept of Zionism and the founders of the state of Israel were not religious at all.

Even to the extent that religion does inform Zionism, it's hardly an extremist variety.

Your phrase was "informed by religious extremism." I referred to Zionists, not Zionism. I did not even imply let alone say that Zionism was a religion any more than Palestinian rights depend on religious extremism. Some parts of the resistance to Israeli oppression will of course be "informed by" religion.

The lie in your contribution is that this entirely lopsided "war" (in which all of the serious force and all of the power is on one side only) is an Israeli decision that owes nothing other than a pretext to the behaviour of Hamas. That has been demonstrated many times.

For example,

After Israel's top leadership exhaustively blamed Hamas for kidnap of 3 teens, they've now admitted killers were acting as "lone cell."

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

Israel claims that its current and past wars against the Palestinian population in Gaza have been in response to rocket fire. Empirical evidence from 2008, 2012 and 2014 refute that claim. First, according to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the greatest reduction of rocket fire came through diplomatic rather than military means. This chart demonstrates the correlation between Israel's military attacks upon the Gaza Strip and Hamas militant activity. Hamas rocket fire increases in response to Israeli military attacks and decreases in direct correlation to them. Cease-fires have brought the greatest security to the region.

During the four months of the Egyptian-negotiated cease-fire in 2008, Palestinian militants reduced the number of rockets to zero or single digits from the Gaza Strip. Despite this relative security and calm, Israel broke the cease-fire to begin the notorious aerial and ground offensive that killed 1,400 Palestinians in twenty-two days. In November 2012, Israel's extrajudicial assassination of Ahmad Jabari, the chief of Hamas's military wing in Gaza, while he was reviewing terms for a diplomatic solution, again broke the cease-fire that precipitated the eight-day aerial offensive that killed 132 Palestinians.

Immediately preceding Israel's most recent operation, Hamas rocket and mortar attacks did not threaten Israel. Israel deliberately provoked this war with Hamas. Without producing a shred of evidence, it accused the political faction of kidnapping and murdering three settlers near Hebron. Four weeks and almost 700 lives later, Israel has yet to produce any evidence demonstrating Hamas's involvement. During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank, Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011. It's these Israeli provocations that precipitated the Hamas rocket fire to which Israel claims left it with no choice but a gruesome military operation.

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

The post that was quoted here has been removed

"Yes, but it's far from surprising that most Americans have been completely
'brainwashed' by the countless lies of pro-Israeli propaganda in the US media"

Sure, anyone believing other than your way is brainwashed. Seems there is a great deal of positive assertions without evidence, and a preconceived notion at work. Isn't it you who is brainwashed?

Originally posted by normbenign
"Yes, but it's far from surprising that most Americans have been completely
'brainwashed' by the countless lies of pro-Israeli propaganda in the US media"

Sure, anyone believing other than your way is brainwashed. Seems there is a great deal of positive assertions without evidence, and a preconceived notion at work. Isn't it you who is brainwashed?

Seems there is a great deal of positive assertions without evidence,

Norm, this is disappointing again. You may disagree til the cows come home but the claim that Duchess makes assertions without evidence can be refuted by simply reviewing the posts she has placed on this forum, loaded with evidence. I have also placed a wide range of evidence on this forum for you to read and consider when you feel able to cope with the grown up world. It is a pity that someone like yourself who often does make the effort to debate as an adult fails so often and descends to childish abuse. Like your posts here. Is it really too difficult for you even to sustain a façade of being an informed adult?