Maine, when a van pulls up behind you, a gang of Russians leap out, knock you out, truss you up and transport you in an aeroplane to a secret prison where you are tortured by the agents of a foreign power without any legal representation whatsoever. You then find out this was accomplished with the connivance of pols and security agents in your own government, who like theirs regard constitutionality as less important than the prosecution of the war on terror. Happy?
Berlusconi demands US 'respect'
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has demanded the US show "full respect" for his country's sovereignty, in an official statement.
His message was delivered to the US ambassador, who was summoned to explain the alleged CIA abduction of an Islamic cleric in Milan in 2003.
Italy denies prior knowledge of the alleged operation to fly Osama Mustafa Hassan, 42, to Egypt for interrogation.
Arrest warrants have been issued for 13 alleged CIA agents.
"The prime minister demanded full respect for Italian sovereignty from the United States," said the statement, which followed Mr Berlusconi's meeting with ambassador Mel Sembler.
The statement said the prime minister received assurances from Mr Sembler that the US' "respect was full and total, and that it would remain so in the future."
Mr Hassan, also known as Abu Omar, was already being investigated in Italy as part of a terrorism inquiry at the time of his reported abduction.
The imam was allegedly flown out of Italy from a US military base
Italian prosecutors believe the operation was part of a controversial US anti-terror policy known as "extraordinary rendition".
The policy involves seizing suspects and taking them to third countries without court approval.
Minister for Parliamentary Relations Carlo Giovanardi has told senators that neither the Italian government nor its intelligence services knew about the operation.
But the Washington Post quoted unnamed CIA veterans saying the CIA station chief in Rome had informed Italian officials in advance.
They said that it was agreed that if the operation became public neither side would confirm its involvement.
No arrests have been made in the case since the warrants were issued. None of the suspects is currently believed to be in Italy.
Mr Hassan, who had been granted refugee status in Italy, was allegedly abducted in February 2003, while walking from his house to his local mosque.
He was then reportedly driven to a US base north of Venice before eventually being taken to Egypt.
The imam told his family he had been tortured with electric shocks during his detention.
Italian investigators say his disappearance hampered an ongoing investigation into alleged terrorist links.
They managed to track down the 13 suspected agents through the Italian mobile phones they used during the operation.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4641821.stm
Note - this man is free. They let him go: there were no links at all.
They abduct a man in broad daylight from a foreign country.
They tie him up and fly him to a secret prison in a nation which supports the use of torture. Agents of that power torture him with an electric cattle prod.
Meanwhile, an official investigation by italian criminal investigators is hampered by his absence.
They liberate him and deny all knowledge.
The President of the United States of America smiles cheesily at a press conference and says that the policy of rendition is defensible because there are bad people out there and his country would never do anything illegal. When a journalist asks what he would think if a foreign power did the same to an American national, he refuses to answer.
Am I really the only person here who finds this incredibly disturbing?
No, Fred, you're not - but it's hardly surprising. The Administration has shown a creeping contempt for international law and this is just a logical progression of that: Italy can't retaliate, after all. As long as there's no serious danger of reprisals the US is content to go about torturing, abducting, terrorising in the name of a war that they started and escalated all by themselves.
Yeah, incredibly disturbing about sums it up.
Originally posted by AmauroteNope. Just one of many who take a lie ... errrr... "exageration" and "go with it". That doesn't make you special at all. Sorry.
Note - this man is free. They let him go: there were no links at all.
They abduct a man in broad daylight from a foreign country.
They tie him up and fly him to a secret prison in a nation which supports the use of torture. Agents o ...[text shortened]... really the only person here who finds this incredibly disturbing?
Thanks for noticing that they did let hiim go once they found out they were wrong? Does that happen in Havana a lot?
What you fail to say is that this same "method" has taken five thousand "terrorists" off the street worldwide since 9/11. That make you sad?
U.S. `rendition' program in action
Maher Arar: In Ottawa, a public inquiry continues into the case of Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer stopped at a New York airport in September 2002 and deported to his native Syria. Arar, 35, says he was held and tortured in a Damascus prison for more than a year before being released without being charged.
Khaled Masri: German prosecutors are investigating the alleged kidnapping of Khaled Masri, a German citizen of Lebanese descent, who was taken off a bus while on holiday in Macedonia in December 2003. He was flown shackled and blindfolded to what he later described as a U.S.-controlled prison in Kabul, Afghanistan. After four months of being beaten and questioned about extremists at his mosque in Ulm, Germany, he was released on a road near the Albanian border.
Ahmed Agiza, Muhammed Alzeri: Swedish authorities have been censured by the U.N. committee that monitors compliance of the Convention Against Torture for their role in the shipment of two asylum seekers to Egypt.
Swedish police handed the two Egyptians over to masked U.S. agents on Dec. 18, 2001. Sweden's chief parliamentary ombudsman says the two men were treated in an "inhuman" manner before landing in Cairo. And Human Rights Watch says they both were tortured in Egyptian jails.
One of the men, 41-year-old Ahmed Agiza, is serving a 25-year sentence for anti-government activities. Egypt released the other man, 35-year-old Muhammed Alzeri, last October without charge.
Public outrage pushed the head of Sweden's security police to promise that foreign agents would never again be allowed to take control of an operation on Swedish soil.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1120255821555&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724
Even if you wink at the cynical disregard for constitutional process and the sovereignty of nation-states, this policy isn't locking anyone up - the law doesn't just keep the security apparatus honest and prevent abuses, it keeps them on an evidence-based footing, which means they're prepared for court cases. Rendition in contrast makes them not only brutal and cruel, it makes them stupid - hence the hopeless conviction rate of the majority of rendition cases.
Originally posted by Amaurote"Wink" might be a bit simplistic in todays world. How about "act at least as coldly as your enemies" but admitting to and then correcting mistakes based your own priciples? Why does this disturb you so much? Do you think that people who do decapitate people simply because they are told to really care about your sensibilities? Further. Do you think we can win against them if we are pussies?
Even if you wink at the cynical disregard for constitutional process and the sovereignty of nation-states, .
High Ideals are great. When your ENEMY shares your view. High ideals when fighting 8th century religious nuts is just plain stupid.
Originally posted by AmauroteWell.. Ok. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt. So now you are saying it is just another "hate america" effort? You should have quit while you were ahead.
StarValley: no-one is admitting to anything - the entire system is clandestine and unaccountable, that is the point. The President will allude to
rendition in nods and winks at staged press conferences in the White House, but for all intents and purposes these people do not exist.
If this isn't fact that is provable then I apologize to reason. Shame on me for participating in rumor mongering. Sorry.
No, you wilfully misunderstand - the details are on the record, just as the policy (although not the operational mechanism) of rendition is on the record. The story has been supported by the CIA: their only qualification is that they claim that the Italian security service gave its consent to the operation - which, of course, it had no constitutional right to do.
Originally posted by AmauroteOk. This it exactly the point I was willing to grant and to begin at.
No, you wilfully misunderstand - the details are on the record, just as the policy (although not the operational mechanism) of rendition is on the record. The story has been supported by the CIA: their only qualification is that they claim that the Italian security service gave its consent to the operation - which, of course, it had no constitutional right to do.
I did grant you all this. Then asked about why it is a good idea to fight 8th century barbarians while binding ourselves to 21th century notions that soothe our sensibilites. Do you think we can win against barbarians if we don't fight on their level? Why and how.
Originally posted by StarValleyWySVW, if I thought the methods Jack Bauer uses in 24 could stop another 9/11, I would support them, but the truth is that these methods are counter-productive and unnecessary - do you really think Italy would have opposed this man's extradition if the US government had chosen to go down the path of legality?
I did grant you all this. Then asked about why it is a good idea to fight 8th century barbarians while binding ourselves to 21th century notions that soothe our sensibilites. Do you think we can win against barbarians if we don't fight on their level? Why and how.
And as for not being able to win against barbarians - I don't remember West Germany defeating the Red Army Faction by adopting their mindset. It simply showed resolve and prosecuted them all - successfully - under the German constitution.
Originally posted by Amaurotenot really, check it out.
... And as for not being able to win against barbarians - I don't remember West Germany defeating the Red Army Faction by adopting their mindset. It simply showed resolve and prosecuted them all - successfully - under the German constitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction
Thanks for the offer, but I don't need to, I've already read three or four books on the subject. I even forked out a hundred quid for a translation of Aust's Inside Baader-Meinhof last year. The history on wikipedia is naturally very curtailed and telescoped but even taking that into account I don't quite see what you're getting at - apart from some minor clarifications of the law which only came at the very end of the first wave, the Baader Meinhof gang was actually treated very favourably under the constitution: Stammheim was not Guantanamo, and the manner in which Baader and Raspe committed suicide is ample testimony to that fact.