@averagejoe1 saidNo Joe stop lying your constant contention is that someone who earns more ipso facto works harder implying that a fat cat estate agent works harder than a Nurse or a coal miner.
No, quite contrare’. You have confirmed, finally, what I have been preaching, a person who works harder should make more. Great, that is settled.
But I still wonder why he said doctors and janitors should make the same thing.
Help. Conflicting statements. How can I learn anything, it makes no sense.
As to my hang up, a man’s worth, the economy, are all the basis of these 4 concepts. That is all I am writing about.
That’s why unfettered capitalism stinks to high heaven and why its unjust consequences require socialist policies to bring back some semblance of fairness and balance.
That is NOT to say everyone should be paid the same or that entrepreneurial endeavour should not be rewarded over and above an individuals purely physical work rate.
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@shavixmir saidIt's always been the way, you're the one trying to distort that by assigning artificial values. In a voluntary exchange of value for value the best parties for assessing those values are the two parties involved only.
No it is not.
Or... I presume humans didn't do anything anyway for 40.000 years...
There are a limited number of people qualified to be surgeons, everyone is qualified to pick up trash, the free market addresses this by making it more lucrative to put in the effort to become a surgeon. The alternatives to this result in either shortages of surgeons or surpluses of trash people.
The cave man spending his day putting a lot of effort into flower arranging no matter how hard he worked at it was not of the same value as the caveman that went out and battled sabre tooth tigers.
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@shavixmir saidYou ole devil you trying to trap me?!!?
Can a janitor work harder than a surgeon?
My adage has been, yes, 'some work harder than others,', so, yes, taken literally, that would mean that the janitor has toiled and dug and lifted all day, much harder 'work' than a doctor with a pair of scissors. So, HE worked harder than the doc. The statement stands, on its own. I am right so far.
Now you interject what their time and labor, work product, expertise, knowledge and skill are worth to your average citizen. To a Mr. Jones, the janitor has nothing to offer, no offense, but sweat and toil, and is doing a job that any other man can do, so by logic cannot command a large wage or salary. Suffice that his hard work cannot command as much payment as a heart surgeon with education and experience and smarts, who saves the life of our Mr. Jones.
So, in closing, Both of these paragraphs stand alone, neither needing the support of the other.
🤔 🙂
PS: What are you giving up for Lent? I hope not the Forum.
@suzianne saidI hear you, but I don't think I ever said 'those who get paid more necessarily work harder", and of course, that is silly and needs no discussion. See my note above, to Shav.
You cannot reverse the metric, however, and say that those who get paid more necessarily work harder, because, in most cases, that is demonstrably untrue.
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@endlame saidLet me. The value of something , be it tangible or intangible, is whatever someone thinks its value is. Again, a subject that stands pat and needs no discussion.
Essential Value needs to be re-assessed
What do you mean by essential?? Brrrrrrrr, sounds like a matter for a dictator? Brrrrrrr
@averagejoe1 saidWhat did you do with Jimmy Hoffa?
Let me. The value of something , be it tangible or intangible, is whatever someone thinks its value is. Again, a subject that stands pat and needs no discussion.
What do you mean by essential?? Brrrrrrrr, sounds like a matter for a dictator? Brrrrrrr
Confess!
@shavixmir saidUSA leads the world right now (dont know about the last 40K years), being number 1 in economy , a capitalist economy. Here is a list, a boring read for you fellers, but note that in these 10, none of you are mentioned except UK. What!?!?
No it is not.
Or... I presume humans didn't do anything anyway for 40.000 years...
https://www.businessinsider.in/top-10-largest-economies-in-the-world/articleshow/70547252.cms
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@kevcvs57 saidHandle this. A coal miner can become a real estate agent, show someone a $2M house while he is sitting in his car, and pocket 7% commission, which is $140K. This is the nature of opportunity, which does not exist in some of your various countries. Or, OR, he can elect to mine coal. Choice.
No Joe stop lying your constant contention is that someone who earns more ipso facto works harder implying that a fat cat estate agent works harder than a Nurse or a coal miner.
That’s why unfettered capitalism stinks to high heaven and why its unjust consequences require socialist policies to bring back some semblance of fairness and balance.
That is NOT to say everyone ...[text shortened]... preneurial endeavour should not be rewarded over and above an individuals purely physical work rate.
I swear, this is true. My legal secretary of many years said, hell, I can do what you do. Went to law school, and became a successful lawyer, doing what I do. Or, OR, she could still be an aging secretary.
Oh, could you elaborate on your reference to (something) being unjust? I dont see it in your post. Who unjust-ed who??
Give it up, Shav.
@averagejoe1 saidIn a social democracy, which is what liberal democrats in the U.S. want and which the U.S. already has although more limited than in Scandinavia, people are paid varying wages based on supply and demand but there is a safety net which ensures that those who work do not become the working poor dependent on the state for basic needs and those unable to work due to a disability are not thrown under the bus. Basic needs such as shelter, healthcare, food, clothing and education are supported by the state through progressive taxation that actually works. There are plenty of billionaires in Scandinavian countries but they are taxed.
No, quite contrare’. You have confirmed, finally, what I have been preaching, a person who works harder should make more. Great, that is settled.
But I still wonder why he said doctors and janitors should make the same thing.
Help. Conflicting statements. How can I learn anything, it makes no sense.
As to my hang up, a man’s worth, the economy, are all the basis of these 4 concepts. That is all I am writing about.
Capitalism is responsible for enormous global economic growth over the past 200 years. When I visited China in 2010, young people were anxious to practice their English and often told me that in China they had their own version of capitalism and then went on to explain how they could now own property and businesses. I even watched a government sponsored TV program devoted to instructing people on how to become successful entrepreneurs.
@mghrn55 saidI do not fault Hannity or professional athletes their salaries. It is all based on the money they make for their employers via the general public's desire to purchase their services and/or products. Just fairly tax these individuals.
It should also be mentioned that under Communism, authorities banned religion.
That has got to get under the skin of Evangelical voter bases everywhere.
What qualifies what people get paid for what they do is not always relevant when market forces kick in.
Basketball players getting $50 million per year is not just based on ability.
And.if you want to venture into the ridiculous, I won't bother trying to figure out why Sean Hannity gets $40M per year from FOX.
@wajoma saidThe "Free Market" is not free. Markets need infrastructure which is paid for through taxation. The first taxation dates back 4500 years ago in Mesopotamia. Unfettered capitalism exists nowhere. Capitalism depends on competition. Monopolies destroy capitalism. Capitalism needs rules and regulations to protect workers, the environment and the public. Unfettered, capitalism leads to environmental destruction, slave wages, and dangerous products and services sold to the public.
Free market is the only way.
BTW, made it about a minute into your vid and the bot said "...all paid for by the goobermint." that was as much BS as I could take. Paid for by the taxpayer ijit, money taken from taxpayers under threat of force that's who's paying for all the 'free' stuff.
@shavixmir saidBasically, the video is saying that any of those terms can mean almost anything the beholder things it means.
Quite often, on this forum, we get stuck in debates which rely on definitions of what socialism, social democracy, communism, nazism, etc. Actually are.
And more often than not, a lot of people don’t seem to grasp what they are or what they mean. For example, people call the nazis socialist… but they also call Obama socialist.
I stumbled across an 11 minute video whic ...[text shortened]... the differences very clearly.
No debate, just basic information:
https://youtu.be/vyl2DeKT-Vs
That's why you debate the policy, not the name.
@phranny saidBut, capitalism in the USA does have rules and regulations to protect workers, the environment, and the public. So don’t get your point
The "Free Market" is not free. Markets need infrastructure which is paid for through taxation. The first taxation dates back 4500 years ago in Mesopotamia. Unfettered capitalism exists nowhere. Capitalism depends on competition. Monopolies destroy capitalism. Capitalism needs rules and regulations to protect workers, the environment and the public. Unfettered, capitalism lea ...[text shortened]... s to environmental destruction, slave wages, and dangerous products and services sold to the public.