Taxation and Theft

IshDaGegg

Debates

03 Aug '10 09:35

IshDaGegg
Joined
09 Jul '10
Moves
720
03 Aug '10 09:35
Is the former an example of the latter?

If so, is theft then sometimes justified? And can other forms of theft be justified too?

If not, what makes taxation not theft? Can the coercive confiscation of private wealth ever be anything but?

I am currently trying to get my thoughts straight on this matter, and would appreciate your input.
KazetNagorra
Germany
Joined
27 Oct '08
Moves
3118
03 Aug '10 09:46
Not this again. First of all, theft is a legal term as well as an informal term. If you are talking about the legal term, it varies from legal system to legal system and is documented in their respective laws and jurisprudence. If you are talking about the latter, then it is a matter of opinion and not of (trivial) fact.

Secondly, taxation is determined through collective consensus; one takes part in society and reaps it benefits, and in turn society collects taxes to keep those benefits society provides to the individual - in practise there is little stopping someone from not taking any more part in society and living as a hermit in the woods, and not pay any taxes.
sh76
Civis Americanus Sum
New York
Joined
26 Dec '07
Moves
17585
03 Aug '10 12:47
Originally posted by IshDaGegg
Is the former an example of the latter?

If so, is theft then sometimes justified? And can other forms of theft be justified too?

If not, what makes taxation not theft? Can the coercive confiscation of private wealth ever be anything but?

I am currently trying to get my thoughts straight on this matter, and would appreciate your input.
==Is the former an example of the latter?==

No

==If so, is theft then sometimes justified?==

N/A

==And can other forms of theft be justified too?==

yes; sometimes some thefts are justified (e.g., stealing and taking asprin if you're having a heart attack in a CVS and you forgot your wallet)

==If not, what makes taxation not theft? ==

Taxation is not theft because it is imposed with the consent of the governed pursuant to a Lockean social contract arrangement between the people and its government.

==Can the coercive confiscation of private wealth ever be anything but?==

The "coercive confiscation of private" property is not only not theft, but eminent domain is a power of a sovereign the concept of which has never been seriously challenged.

==I am currently trying to get my thoughts straight on this matter, and would appreciate your input.==

Any time
whodey
Joined
02 Jan '06
Moves
12857
03 Aug '10 13:351 edit
Originally posted by IshDaGegg
Is the former an example of the latter?

If so, is theft then sometimes justified? And can other forms of theft be justified too?

If not, what makes taxation not theft? Can the coercive confiscation of private wealth ever be anything but?

I am currently trying to get my thoughts straight on this matter, and would appreciate your input.
In other words, you elect representatives to represent you so any taxation that they feel is necessary or desire you pay. The expectation is that you will kick them out of office if you do not like their representation. However, the game now seems to be to spend like drunken sailors without taxation because these same politicians don't want to be kicked out of office but, at the same time, enjoy spending your money hand over fist like "W" and Obama are doing and have done. This then presents a problem for future generations who will have NO CHOICE in regards to increasing taxes.

American is a shining example of having a schitzophrenic personality in that they want "free things" they don't want to have to pay for.
Melanerpes
Joined
08 Oct '08
Moves
5542
03 Aug '10 13:381 edit
Originally posted by whodey
In other words, you elect representatives to represent you so any taxation that they feel is necessary or desire you pay. The expectation is that you will kick them out of office if you do not like their representation. However, the game now seems to be to spend like drunken sailors without taxation because these same politicians don't want to be kicked out tzophrenic personality in that they want "free things" they don't want to have to pay for.
being that this is a month to discuss non-US topics -- are there other countries that have a better way of running government and levying taxes?
KazetNagorra
Germany
Joined
27 Oct '08
Moves
3118
03 Aug '10 13:39
Originally posted by Melanerpes
being that this is a month to discuss non-US topics -- are there other countries that have a better way of running government and levying taxes?
That depends on how you would like to measure that.
whodey
Joined
02 Jan '06
Moves
12857
03 Aug '10 14:34
Originally posted by Melanerpes
being that this is a month to discuss non-US topics -- are there other countries that have a better way of running government and levying taxes?
The US probably has the most dysfunctional governing group of individuals in the history of mankind. Unfortunatly, all they concentrate on doing is increasing their power and lack of accountability.
Melanerpes
Joined
08 Oct '08
Moves
5542
03 Aug '10 16:284 edits
Originally posted by whodey
The US probably has the most dysfunctional governing group of individuals in the history of mankind. Unfortunatly, all they concentrate on doing is increasing their power and lack of accountability.
And yet, despite your belief that every other country in the world has a better system, you continue to choose to live in this one.

If nothing else, you could cross Lake Erie and live in Canada -- it's not that far away. (Not that rooting for the Blue Jays is much of a step up from the Reds...)
utherpendragon
Hy-Brasil
Joined
24 Feb '09
Moves
175970
03 Aug '10 16:361 edit
Originally posted by Melanerpes
being that this is a month to discuss non-US topics -- are there other countries that have a better way of running government and levying taxes?
Who says this is a month to discuss non USA topics?
FMF
Joined
28 Oct '05
Moves
34587
03 Aug '10 16:37
Originally posted by Melanerpes
And yet, despite your belief that every other country in the world has a better system, you continue to choose to live in this one.
It's also interesting that whodey seems never to want to consider 'good practice' from other countries. I seem to remember an anecdote about an old lady in a German hospital being brandished by whodey in order to nix any further or deeper consideration of the German health system.
Melanerpes
Joined
08 Oct '08
Moves
5542
03 Aug '10 16:471 edit
Originally posted by utherpendragon
[b]Who says this is a month to discuss non USA topics?[/b]
FMF
Melanerpes
Joined
08 Oct '08
Moves
5542
03 Aug '10 16:50
Originally posted by FMF
It's also interesting that whodey seems never to want to consider 'good practice' from other countries. I seem to remember an anecdote about an old lady in a German hospital being brandished by whodey in order to nix any further or deeper consideration of the German health system.
I guess Germany's off the list of countries that Whodey would be willing to move to in order to escape the tyranny he currently lives under.
FMF
Joined
28 Oct '05
Moves
34587
03 Aug '10 16:53
Originally posted by Melanerpes
FMF
Mark my words. I will not start any threads about the U.S.

So far I have got the ball rolling with OPs on topics such as Brazil, Japan, China, Afghanistan and the Netherlands.
utherpendragon
Hy-Brasil
Joined
24 Feb '09
Moves
175970
03 Aug '10 16:55
Originally posted by Melanerpes
FMF
LMAO!!!!!🙄😲😵😀😛🙂😉

Myself and others will post and create threads about what we so choose. USA or other wise. The month of August or any month!
Who the hell is FMF? Some authority around here? Or even some one who should be respected?
A vindictive, lying,deceitful troll through and through!
I could care less what the hell FMF has to say let alone honor some absurd request to censorship.
Melanerpes
Joined
08 Oct '08
Moves
5542
03 Aug '10 17:021 edit
Originally posted by utherpendragon
LMAO!!!!!🙄😲😵😀😛🙂😉

Myself and others will post and create threads about what we so choose. USA or other wise. The month of August or any month!
Who the hell is FMF? Some authority around here? Or even some one who should be respected?
A vindictive, lying,deceitful troll through and through!
I could care less what the hell FMF has to say let alone honor some absurd request to censorship.
I agree with FMF -- topics related to the US seem to dominate the Debates Forum -- so it would be most refreshing to take a month off from beating on the usual dead horses.

Obviously, FMF isn't censoring anything. Post as you wish.

Debates Forum

Taxation and Theft