Taxation and Theft

Originally posted by Melanerpes
And yet, despite your belief that every other country in the world has a better system, you continue to choose to live in this one.

If nothing else, you could cross Lake Erie and live in Canada -- it's not that far away. (Not that rooting for the Blue Jays is much of a step up from the Reds...)

Whodey believes in the principles of the Founding Fathers in the US and will fight to reinstate them. Federalism must be revived.

Originally posted by whodey
What exactly is citizenship now days FMF?

What a silly question. If this some kind of oblique-whodey-rant-foreplay about illegal immigration and unsecured borders and immigrants-becoming-citizens, then you are barking up the wrong tree. As I have said, I believe in (1) enforcing the laws as they stand, (2) securing the border as well as can be, (3) immigration reform. Every country has its own definition of 'citizen' in terms of its own laws and constitution, but they are all more or less the same (although naturalizing in some countries if far, far difficult than in others). If you want a definition of 'U.S. citizen', I suggest you look it up.

Originally posted by IshDaGegg
What if I personally withdraw my consent? Does it start being theft then?

If you stop paying taxes, but use public goods nonetheless, then it is indeed a form of theft called tax fraud.

If you stop paying taxes and not use any public goods whatsoever, i.e. live as a hermit, that is your call.

Originally posted by IshDaGegg
What if I personally withdraw my consent? Does it start being theft then?

If you pay for the services you use but stop short of shouting the pollies their latest jerk job you're going down guy.

Originally posted by Wajoma
If you pay for the services you use but stop short of shouting the pollies their latest jerk job you're going down guy.

The whole point of taxation is that it is used for goods which benefits cannot be effectively traced to a single consumer.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
The whole point of taxation is that it is used for goods which benefits cannot be effectively traced to a single consumer.

Think about what you've just said, if it's about paying for benefits then we should all pay the same amount.

Originally posted by Wajoma
Think about what you've just said, if it's about paying for benefits then we should all pay the same amount.

Unless there is a benefit from not all paying the same amount.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Unless there is a benefit from not all paying the same amount.

Tripped up on your own words.

Originally posted by Wajoma
Tripped up on your own words.

Not at all. One could make the case that the Swedish rich have a higher living standard than the American rich. If this is indeed the case, they benefit from a more progressive taxation system.

Originally posted by sh76
No; the consent of the governed means the consent of the majority, not necessarily the consent of everybody.

Suppose I withdraw my consent to have some of my money taken from me by the government, but that most people governed by the government continue to give their consent.

Why does their collective consent make it *not* theft for the government to take my money off me by force?

Analogy:

Suppose you think that some of my money would be better spent on other people than on me. But I refuse to give it too you. So you take it off me by force. That's theft, even if you are right.

Suppose a bunch of people get together, and a majority of them decide that a small group of other people should be permitted to take my money off me, to better spend it on still other people. So they take it off me by force. That's not theft, apparently.

Why?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Maybe. If you feel that way, pick up a rifle and defend your rights.

I don't fancy my chances.

But Jews didn't fancy their chances against Hitler. That didn't make Hitler right.

Originally posted by FMF
Surely 'withdrawing your consent to be taxed' would be tantamount to 'giving up your citizenship' which would then surely place a question mark over your right to live in the area encompassed by the body politic and the community that creates it?

Perhaps it would. Does that mean being taxed is not theft?

Originally posted by IshDaGegg
Perhaps it would. Does that mean being taxed is not theft?

Suppose tax is indeed theft. What consequence does that have, in your view?

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
If you stop paying taxes, but use public goods nonetheless, then it is indeed a form of theft called tax fraud.

If you stop paying taxes and not use any public goods whatsoever, i.e. live as a hermit, that is your call.

Well, I can see the argument that if X gives me some set of benefits then I should be prepared to pay for them.

However, these benefits are being imposed on me, via a scheme I might not approve of, and a cost is being extracted from me, via a scheme I might not approve of.

It's not as if the benefits are being offered, and I choose to pay for them or not. Rather, I must pay for them, and perhaps must benefit from them, or face penalties.

If I were to give you something and make it difficult for you not to use it, and then take some of your money by force to pay for it, would the latter operation no longer be theft?

(Furthermore, if I said, "If you don't like this arrangement, then get lost!" would that be proper of me?)

Suppose I didn't use public goods--or minimized my use of them as much as possible--but stayed in society and earned a living by providing useful goods and services to others, to the extent that I was a net contributor to society's wealth.

Would taxation now be theft? Would it only not be theft if I was a net beneficiary from public goods?

Well, suppose that the government wastes money by providing goods and services at above the market rate, and hence charges everyone too much. Should the excess be marked as thieved from me?

Note: Wouldn't it only be tax fraud if I make a false claim about how much tax I owed, rather than if I just refused to pay it.

Originally posted by IshDaGegg
Perhaps it would. Does that mean being taxed is not theft?

No. Tax is a kind of symbiosis. Not theft.