In the campaign, there were about 37,000 shooting incidents, and more than 16,000 bombs and 2000 incendiary devices were used. https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/ni/security.htm#05
IF the IRA were really soooooooooooooooooo hellbent on killing civilians, the death toll would have been in the tens of thousands and not less than 700 in almost 25 years of operations.
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@no1marauder
It may say a lot for the British Intelligence, who scuppered many at source?
Otherwise I am struggling to see the relevance of this?
(Ok, I know using 'struggling' leaves me open to witty attack)
@kevcvs57 said"Lions" exist and we have a specific definition for them. If a child calls a "squirrel" a "lion", we point out their error.
We’ve already touched on this Shav and I’m not sure I disagree with what your saying but that logic means that there is no such thing as terrorism, it’s just a meaningless label.
But that’s not what No1 is arguing, he’s arguing that PIRA specifically are not terrorists even though terrorists and terrorism exists.
Essentially that is what I am doing here; you have been told to call the IRA "terrorists" and have accepted and repeated this propaganda. I am pointing out to you that that label is inaccurate and showing you the massive evidence to prove its inaccuracy.
@blood-on-the-tracks saidThe post is self-explanatory.
@no1marauder
It may say a lot for the British Intelligence, who scuppered many at source?
Otherwise I am struggling to see the relevance of this?
(Ok, I know using 'struggling' leaves me open to witty attack)
IF the IRA wanted to kill civilians, they had the capability to kill many more than a few dozen a year.
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@no1marauder
Probably a few dozen too many, though. Agreed?
Anyways...please continue with your narrative of how the 'Troubles' affected Ireland. Think you got to around 1970?
@blood-on-the-tracks saidIt is unfortunate that civilians were killed by the IRA in the just war that the UK forced upon them, yes.
@no1marauder
Probably a few dozen too many, though. Agreed?
@blood-on-the-tracks saidI already did, page 6, third post from the bottom.
@no1marauder
Probably a few dozen too many, though. Agreed?
Anyways...please continue with your narrative of how the 'Troubles' affected Ireland. Think you got to around 1970?
@blood-on-the-tracks saidThere's no need; I provided the background and reasons for the war. That was what I intended to do.
@no1marauder
yep...must admit it bored me. But take it up from where you left off.
If someone wants to argue that armed resistance wasn't justified given the undisputed facts of British oppression, tyranny and violence they have the floor.
@no1marauder
You have me convinced but it is still in the past and there are no more terrorist actions going on right now that I know of anyway.
The south has autonomy right? The north WANTS to be part of the UK.
Are you going to fight that?
@sonhouse saidI'm not here to tell people in other countries what strategies they should adopt to resist oppression.
@no1marauder
You have me convinced but it is still in the past and there are no more terrorist actions going on right now that I know of anyway.
The south has autonomy right? The north WANTS to be part of the UK.
Are you going to fight that?
I do not believe the majority in the Six Counties should alone decide whether that part of Ireland is joined with the rest; that should be the choice of all the People on Eire.
Were the allies justified in murdering civilians during WW2?
What about Nelson Mandela? He was a terrorist. Justified behaviour or not?
Arafat?
What about operation Flavius?
Sean Savage, Daniel McCann, and Mairéad Farrell shot dead in Gibraltar.
Were these soldiers that were killed by the SAS?
Or were they criminals who were judged without trial?
You can’t say the IRA is not an army, but then treat them as soldiers when you want to kill them.
Muddy waters indeed.
@no1marauder saidNo you and your drinking pals at the Irish Bar an ocean away from any repercussions have somehow managed to convince yourselves that civilians killed by the PIRA terrorists are to be ignored. The reasons for your callous attitude to the murder of innocent men women and children are known only to you and your cohorts.
"Lions" exist and we have a specific definition for them. If a child calls a "squirrel" a "lion", we point out their error.
Essentially that is what I am doing here; you have been told to call the IRA "terrorists" and have accepted and repeated this propaganda. I am pointing out to you that that label is inaccurate and showing you the massive evidence to prove its inaccuracy.
PIRA did not declare war in the British Army, they declared war on the British State which would include civilians by definition.
Not one single time did they engage the British Army in conventional warfare. Their tactics were the tactics of countless terrorist groups operating then and now. Pick soft military targets such as the back of a soldiers head with a sniper rifle whilst hiding behind civilians at 300m, plant roadside bombs that kill indiscriminately whilst claiming that it was a military target, give intentionally vague warnings in order to draw more members of the security forces into the blast area including civilian police officers, plant bombs in hotels teeming with civilians to carry out political assassinations, suppress dissent and disobedience in your host area by punishments ranging from beatings to death, all without lawful trial.
Northern Ireland was not invaded by the Brits in 1968 the first troops actively on the ground were defending Catholic / Nationalist from Protestant / Loyalist rioters who were trying to burn them out of their homes.
Ireland was invaded by many people on many occasions just like its larger neighbour. The relevant invasion and colonisation was that of the English Crown and subsequent Plantation settlers in 1601-1602 the community that arose from that have been living in Ireland ever since. That’s the Loyalist community ( circa 1,000,000 at the time) whose interests and wishes you think should be suppressed at the point of a terrorists gun, unfortunately they had terrorists of their own who were more than happy to go toe to toe with the Nationalist community ( circa 900,000 at the time )
Those are the two warring groups that the British Army was sandwiched between. Clearly as the situation evolved those on the Nationalist side of the divide understandably came to see the Army and their fellow Brits in Loyalist areas as a common enemy even though all the British soldiers could see were mad Paddy’s on either side, but only one side was spitting and shooting at them.
It is worth noting that PIRAs cry of ‘Brits Out’ was viewed by some sectors of the 1000,000 loyalist population as a call for what we would describe as ethnic cleansing on account of that’s who they were / are.