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Debates Forum

  1. 11 Aug '17 12:23 / 1 edit
    Looking at all the "not spots" in the world today, how much of it should be blamed on past decisions from the UN?

    For example, Israel was created by the UN. It has been a hot bed ever since. The UN voted to go to war in Korea and now the world is looking at nuclear war today, the UN voted to go to war in Libya and now ISIS has a firm foothold in that country, etc.

    Has the UN been a complete failure? Has it only achieved the exact opposite of its intent?
  2. 11 Aug '17 12:25
    Was the resolution to go to war in Korea and Libya a correct one?
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    11 Aug '17 12:33
    The UN is fine as a forum for dialogue and for organization of humanitarian activities.

    For security, the UN has proven itself irrelevant over and over again.
  4. Subscriber Ponderable
    chemist
    11 Aug '17 13:02 / 1 edit
    The UN is suffering form a principal error in ist structure: the Veto in the security council. As long as five states have the power to block anything there won't be a high Impact.

    That Israel is what it is today is thanks to the US Veto.
    The Korean war was only brought Forward, since Russia didn't vote.
    The Lybia conflict was a desaster insofar as no specific plan for a post-Gaddafi time was envisaged. Plus the nonsensical frontiers drawn by colonial powers are deemed sacrosanct. Had Lyvia been distributed in roughly three parts: Cyrenaika in the North east, Lybia in the North west and Tuareg in the south a lot what we see today wouldn't have occured. Africa suffers from too big "nations" with artificial frontiers.
  5. 11 Aug '17 13:07
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Looking at all the "not spots" in the world today, how much of it should be blamed on past decisions from the UN?

    For example, Israel was created by the UN. It has been a hot bed ever since. The UN voted to go to war in Korea and now the world is looking at nuclear war today, the UN voted to go to war in Libya and now ISIS has a firm foothold in that co ...[text shortened]...

    Has the UN been a complete failure? Has it only achieved the exact opposite of its intent?
    Israel was not "created by the UN" and the UN did not "vote to go to war" in Korea or Libya.

    Anything else I need to clear up about the UN?
  6. 11 Aug '17 13:26
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    Israel was not "created by the UN" and the UN did not "vote to go to war" in Korea or Libya.

    Anything else I need to clear up about the UN?
    I see, so the UN had next to nothing to do with the creation of Israel and Korea was not really a war.

    Got it! Thanks for that.
  7. 11 Aug '17 13:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @ponderable
    The UN is suffering form a principal error in ist structure: the Veto in the security council. As long as five states have the power to block anything there won't be a high Impact.

    That Israel is what it is today is thanks to the US Veto.
    The Korean war was only brought Forward, since Russia didn't vote.
    The Lybia conflict was a desaster insofar as ...[text shortened]... ee today wouldn't have occured. Africa suffers from too big "nations" with artificial frontiers.
    So the war in Libya was justifiable and would have worked if only they had redistributed the country correctly?

    Why was it justifiable?
  8. Subscriber Ponderable
    chemist
    11 Aug '17 14:15
    Originally posted by @whodey
    So the war in Libya was justifiable and would have worked if only they had redistributed the country correctly?

    Why was it justifiable?
    What I said was that the ensuing chaos came from bad planing.
    The existence of strongmen, tyrants or whatever you call them is a direct consequence of colonial heritage.

    There had been a civil war in Libya before so called coalition participated.

    What are your criteria about a war? Then we can clear that up. whose participation was justified by what would be the interesting question. (Was the war bewteen the Union and the CSA justified? Was the cessetion justified who was the agressor? What measures to avoid a war, what war to avoid unjustness are there?)
  9. 11 Aug '17 14:21 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @ponderable
    What I said was that the ensuing chaos came from bad planing.
    The existence of strongmen, tyrants or whatever you call them is a direct consequence of colonial heritage.

    There had been a civil war in Libya before so called coalition participated.

    What are your criteria about a war? Then we can clear that up. whose participation was justified by w ...[text shortened]... ied who was the agressor? What measures to avoid a war, what war to avoid unjustness are there?)
    When is war justified? That is what I'm; asking you, for you see, I'm not an enlightened Prog like Obama. I was hoping you could learn me.

    When does war not create chaos? Every war creates chaos.

    All I would add is, when you go to war expect chaos, as well as insurgencies for at least a decade, like what happened after WW2 in Nazi Germany, so plan to stay and see it through unlike when Obama left Iraq and ISIS took over.

    Also, plan to actually win instead of fostering a growing cancer like North Korea and Iran.
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    11 Aug '17 15:42
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Looking at all the "not spots" in the world today, how much of it should be blamed on past decisions from the UN?

    For example, Israel was created by the UN. It has been a hot bed ever since. The UN voted to go to war in Korea and now the world is looking at nuclear war today, the UN voted to go to war in Libya and now ISIS has a firm foothold in that co ...[text shortened]...

    Has the UN been a complete failure? Has it only achieved the exact opposite of its intent?
    Israel was not "created by the UN". It was created by war.
  11. 11 Aug '17 16:22
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I see, so the UN had next to nothing to do with the creation of Israel and Korea was not really a war.

    Got it! Thanks for that.
    I recommend a reading comprehension course.
  12. 11 Aug '17 16:29
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Israel was not "created by the UN". It was created by war.
    I see, so UN resolution 181 that created the Zionist state then led to a quick war to create the nation of Israel we have today? Is this your argument?
  13. 11 Aug '17 17:51
    Regarding historical arguments about who was responsible for creating the state of Israel, how far back do you want to go?

    To UN Resolution 181 of 1947? To the Balfour Declaration of 1917? Or earlier to the
    Zionist movement's lobbying for influence both among states and the Jewish people?
    (I know an interesting book about Germany's sympathy for Zionism during the First World War.)

    Here's an official US State Department view:
    https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

    "Although the United States backed Resolution 181, the U.S. Department of State recommended
    the creation of a United Nations trusteeship with limits on Jewish immigration and a
    division of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab provinces but not states.
    The State Department, concerned about the possibility of an increasing Soviet role in the
    Arab world and the potential for restriction by Arab oil producing nations of oil supplies to
    the United States, advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews. ...
    Despite growing conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Palestinian Jews and despite the Department of
    State’s endorsement of a trusteeship, Truman ultimately decided to recognize the state Israel."
  14. 11 Aug '17 18:52 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Regarding historical arguments about who was responsible for creating the state of Israel, how far back do you want to go?

    To UN Resolution 181 of 1947? To the Balfour Declaration of 1917? Or earlier to the
    Zionist movement's lobbying for influence both among states and the Jewish people?
    (I know an interesting book about Germany's sympathy for Zio ...[text shortened]...
    State’s endorsement of a trusteeship, Truman ultimately decided to recognize the state Israel."
    I don't really care how far back you go. All I want is to hold accountable those who seemingly just want to sit back and blame the orange man for everything wrong in the world even though he has been in office less than a year instead of owning up to their short comings.

    The UN is and has been a train wreck. In fact, it has been more destructive than anything
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    11 Aug '17 18:53
    Originally posted by @ponderable
    The UN is suffering form a principal error in ist structure: the Veto in the security council. As long as five states have the power to block anything there won't be a high Impact.

    That Israel is what it is today is thanks to the US Veto.
    The Korean war was only brought Forward, since Russia didn't vote.
    The Lybia conflict was a desaster insofar as ...[text shortened]... ee today wouldn't have occured. Africa suffers from too big "nations" with artificial frontiers.
    The UN veto is why we haven't yet had WWIII.