Truth constrained by reality alone

@moonbus said
Reality is NOT true. A chair is NOT true. A tree is NOT true. Truth is a property of propositions ABOUT chairs and trees.

You confuse the map for the territory. Over and over.

For Pete's sake, man, go to the local community college and take a course in Logic 101 ! Then come back and talk to us.

Well, if reality is not true, I guess nothing is, according to you. You lost the forest for the trees.

@shavixmir said
What I’m pointing out is that reality is not an objective truth.

Take that dress picture.

You look at reality and form your pictures in your head, your opinions of what is and is not. Still, when reality and your opinions clash, you have only two choices: ignore reality or change your opinion of it, because it is not going to change to suit your opinions of it.

@KellyJay said
Reality is true no matter what I think about it or you, if we cannot change it in how or what we think.

Shav's point is that reality has to be interpreted.

For example, I once asked you if rainbows were designed. Your response was that they were because of what the Bible says.

However, rainbows are an illusion: they do not actually exist, they are just rays of refracted light. To the writers of the Bible, rainbows were "reality" because they were unaware of how light scatters.

Same for the sun traveling around the earth; Biblical writers thought this was "reality" when in truth they were witnessing the earth's rotation.

The point is that we don't always know what is reality, just what *seems* real. We may think we know but for thousands of years man was wrong about many things that seemed real at the time.

@vivify said
Shav's point is that reality has to be interpreted.

For example, I once asked you if rainbows were designed. Your response was that they were because of what the Bible says.

However, rainbows are an illusion: they do not actually exist, they are just rays of refracted light. To the writers of the Bible, rainbows were "reality" because they were unaware of how light ...[text shortened]... ink we know but for thousands of years man was wrong about many things that seemed real at the time.

We have to interpret it, yes, but our interpretation can be correct or wrong; that is our opinion, which does not make water hotter or colder than it is. We can be wrong in what we see and say, period, full stop. We do not have to bring the Bible up for that; for this to be true, it is true. Nothing about my argument says, “I believe this because the Bible says .” That may be an out for you, some reason to ignore me, but that again is your choice, your opinion, not affecting reality at all, only your opinion, which is not constrained by reality, it seems.

@KellyJay said
You look at reality and form your pictures in your head, your opinions of what is and is not. Still, when reality and your opinions clash, you have only two choices: ignore reality or change your opinion of it, because it is not going to change to suit your opinions of it.

Which reality?

It would seem you don’t catch what I’m saying.
There are different ways of interpretting reality.
Different schools of philosophy.

You can sit there and claim said dress is gold and white, but other people claim it’s black and blue.

It’s the same dress. Just some people see it differently. Does that make one batch of people correct and the other wrong?
Or is reality that there’s interpretation by individuals and it’s neither right or wrong?

@KellyJay said
We have to interpret it, yes, but our interpretation can be correct or wrong; that is our opinion, which does not make water hotter or colder than it is. We can be wrong in what we see and say, period, full stop.

"We can be wrong in what we see and say"---Yes. That is the point.

Some observations like the effect of hot or cold water can remain consistent; but as you acknowledge, we can be wrong in what we think we see.

Because of this, "reality" is often subjective.

@vivify said
"We can be wrong in what we see and say"---Yes. That is the point.

Some observations like the effect of hot or cold water can remain consistent; but as you acknowledge, we can be wrong in what we think we see.

Because of this, "reality" is often subjective.

No, reality remains constant; it is our perception that is ever changing. The constants in reality remain, no matter how correct or in error our thoughts about them are. Our understanding must always adjust to what we learn about reality; our worldviews are mutable, so is our science, because we do not grasp reality as it is, but we learn. If our assumptions are completely wrong in any of our conclusions, does reality change, or do our assumptions? If we throw our hands up in the air, crying no one knows anything, does reality change due to that despair, or us? Truth, if it is not constrained by reality alone, is not truth; it is an opinion.

@shavixmir said
Which reality?

It would seem you don’t catch what I’m saying.
There are different ways of interpretting reality.
Different schools of philosophy.

You can sit there and claim said dress is gold and white, but other people claim it’s black and blue.

It’s the same dress. Just some people see it differently. Does that make one batch of people correct and the other wrong?
Or is reality that there’s interpretation by individuals and it’s neither right or wrong?

There is only one reality, and a host of opinions. We count on it in some areas and reject it in others, but that is because we are flawed.

@KellyJay said
No, reality remains constant; it is our perception that is ever changing.

Reality *may* be constant. Since humans cannot be sure what reality is in the first place, we also can't be sure whether it's "constant" or not.

All we can do is gather evidence to the best of our abilities.

@vivify said
Reality *may* be constant. Since humans cannot be sure what reality is in the first place, we also can't be sure whether it's "constant" or not.

All we can do is gather evidence to the best of our abilities.

The correct reality is constant; people are not, so our opinions are always mutable, always in flux. This goes to our views inside science, logic, and everything else when it comes to what we think is true. Depending on what we take in to mold our views, if it is not 100% correct, we introduce misinformation that will affect our conclusions. If we only care about being right instead of the truth, we will never be corrected, if we think our thoughts alone are where the truth resides. Truth and information are both matters of certainty; uncertainty means that it could be true, maybe not, but if you have certainty in every light possible, you are dealing with the truth, if not contradiction and error abound.

Something that isn’t real, it is not part of reality, something that resides in our thoughts starts and stops inside of us, and if we claim it is a truth simply because we think it is, that is simply our hubris.

@KellyJay said
Opinions require assumptions; reality is real, no matter what I think about it.

Nah, this is just wrong.

What someone sees is not an opinion, but it is assumed. Your brain incorporates multiple threads of sensory inputs and converts that to a best guess of reality. If you think all things true cannot rely on assumptions, then all of everything breaks down. Nothing is real in your world.

There are empirical examples of where your contention breaks down. Some people hear colors. Are you contending that their reality isn't real? A less extreme example is that the physical image that hits the back of your eye is upside down, and your brain flips it so you see the world right side up. Individuals also see colors slightly differently, colors are interpreted by your brain and this requires exposure during early childhood.

Each individual reality is different.

@wildgrass said
Nah, this is just wrong.

What someone sees is not an opinion, but it is assumed. Your brain incorporates multiple threads of sensory inputs and converts that to a best guess of reality. If you think all things true cannot rely on assumptions, then all of everything breaks down. Nothing is real in your world.

There are empirical examples of where your contention breaks ...[text shortened]... ur brain and this requires exposure during early childhood.

Each individual reality is different.

Really, is that true, or is that your opinion?
Can you be wrong?
Do you think all of your perceptions are reflections of reality, or are they just your opinion?

If your perception is faulty, you will have a difficult time discerning what is true, which means you’re at a disadvantage due to your grasp of the truth.

@moonbus said
Reality is NOT true. A chair is NOT true. A tree is NOT true. Truth is a property of propositions ABOUT chairs and trees.

You confuse the map for the territory. Over and over.

For Pete's sake, man, go to the local community college and take a course in Logic 101 ! Then come back and talk to us.

A community college course or a handful of mushrooms.

@KellyJay said
Really, is that true, or is that your opinion?
Can you be wrong?
Do you think all of your perceptions are reflections of reality, or are they just your opinion?

If your perception is faulty, you will have a difficult time discerning what is true, which means you’re at a disadvantage due to your grasp of the truth.

Logic solves all your problems. You can test faulty assumptions and if they are not tested false then we can assume they are true (until evidence is presented which contradicts that assumption). This is how we've built society.

@wildgrass said
A community college course or a handful of mushrooms.

Something to jolt him out of his dogmatic filter bubble.

😆