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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    20 Aug '18 20:12
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/19/us-democrats-are-struggling-to-make-sense-of-a-socialist-surge

    "US Democrats are struggling to make sense of a socialist surge"
    --Anne McElvoy (senior editor at the 'Economist', which is fully pro-capitalist)

    "The hot movement for opponents of Donald Trump’s aggressive populism
    is the Democratic Socialists of America, fiercely competing for political
    oxygen with Democratic party candidates. For a democracy once said
    by a Soviet visitor to offer a choice that was “the difference between
    Coca-Cola and Pepsi Cola”, this is a whole new brew."

    "But they add to a sense that leading Democrats are better at reviewing
    recent US history than previewing the next chapter.

    Driving that is the widening gap in profound views. A new Gallup poll
    concludes that support for capitalism as a system has fallen to below 50%
    among Democrats for the first time in the postwar era. In a Newsweek
    analysis, the commentator Peter Roff reckoned that the driving force
    was that “Democrats are losing faith in capitalism, not growing more
    attached to socialism”."

    "The sense of a retreating American Dream now available only to the
    well-to-do has echoes in Theresa May’s sporadic attempts to address
    the pressured lifestyles and budgets of “just about managing” workers
    in Britain or vaguely contoured attempts among centre-left thinkers to
    define an “inclusive capitalism”. The 2008 financial crash pushed this
    into sharp relief for a rising generation. When I speak to the admissions
    dean of a prestigious state university, he says “around a third” of students
    who enter on hardship schemes do so because their parents lost their
    homes in the wake of the sub-prime housing market collapse."

    "For all the deepened divisions of America, many voters occupy the big
    prairies of belief in between the populist surge of Trumpworld and those
    who think that the answer to modern economic woes is the promise to
    make more stuff free. If the extremes of politics feel like the exciting place
    to be, however, centrists have to define their own radical agenda with
    much greater verve. Outsourcing that will leave centrist Democrats with
    little to run on but their pride and legacy – and that never carries the crowd."
  2. Joined
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    20 Aug '18 20:291 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/19/us-democrats-are-struggling-to-make-sense-of-a-socialist-surge

    "US Democrats are struggling to make sense of a socialist surge"
    --Anne McElvoy (senior editor at the 'Economist', which is fully pro-capitalist)

    "The hot movement for opponents of Donald Trump’s aggressive populism
    is the Democra ...[text shortened]... emocrats with
    little to run on but their pride and legacy – and that never carries the crowd."
    I've read opinion pieces making the point that capitalism per se is not the problem, it is capitalism dominated continuous quest for (1) short term profits without (2) a measure of environmental impact and (3) equitable social distribution.
  3. Zugzwang
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    21 Aug '18 17:51
    Originally posted by @js357
    I've read opinion pieces making the point that capitalism per se is not the problem, it is capitalism dominated continuous quest for (1) short term profits without (2) a measure of environmental impact and (3) equitable social distribution.
    "...capitalism per se is not the problem."
    --JS357

    What's supposed to be 'capitalism per se'? The most original form of capitalism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

    "A closely related conception is that of raw/pure capitalism or unrestrained capitalism
    that refers to capitalism free of social regulations,[43] with low, minimal[44] or no government
    and operating almost entirely on the profit motive. Other than laissez-faire economics
    and anarcho-capitalism it is not associated with a school of thought and typically has a
    bad connotation which hints towards a perceived need for restraint due to social needs and
    securities that can not be adequately responded to by companies with just a motive for making profit."

    In capitalist economies, there's a thriving industry of apologias for capitalism.
  4. Joined
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    21 Aug '18 18:27
    Originally posted by @js357
    I've read opinion pieces making the point that capitalism per se is not the problem, it is capitalism dominated continuous quest for (1) short term profits without (2) a measure of environmental impact and (3) equitable social distribution.
    I believe that Capitalism is a byproduct of the free market system.

    I'm not an economist but that's what I think.

    I also think that the extremes, full blown Communism and cowboy Capitalism, and more alike than we think.
    They both strive for extreme concentration of wealth.
    The only difference being who holds the keys to that wealth.
    The state or private corporations ?
  5. Behind the scenes
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    21 Aug '18 19:061 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/19/us-democrats-are-struggling-to-make-sense-of-a-socialist-surge

    "US Democrats are struggling to make sense of a socialist surge"
    --Anne McElvoy (senior editor at the 'Economist', which is fully pro-capitalist)

    "The hot movement for opponents of Donald Trump’s aggressive populism
    is the Democra ...[text shortened]... emocrats with
    little to run on but their pride and legacy – and that never carries the crowd."
    "For all the deepened divisions of America, many voters occupy the big
    prairies of belief in between the populist surge of Trumpworld and those
    who think that the answer to modern economic woes is the promise to
    make more stuff free. If the extremes of politics feel like the exciting place
    to be, however, centrists have to define their own radical agenda with
    much greater verve. Outsourcing that will leave centrist Democrats with
    little to run on but their pride and legacy – and that never carries the crowd."




    Normally I would agree, but at the rate Donald Trump's legal situation is degenerating, I predict Donald Trump and the entire GOP will be so politically weakened by 2020 the Democrats will not need a cohesive and intelligent message to regain power.
  6. Zugzwang
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    21 Aug '18 19:20
    Originally posted by @mchill
    "For all the deepened divisions of America, many voters occupy the big
    prairies of belief in between the populist surge of Trumpworld and those
    who think that the answer to modern economic woes is the promise to
    make more stuff free. If the extremes of politics feel like the exciting place
    to be, however, centrists have to define their own radical ag ...[text shortened]... weakened by 2020 the Democrats will not need a cohesive and intelligent message to regain power.
    Does Mchill believe that the Democratic Party could renominate Hillary Clinton and win in 2020?
  7. Behind the scenes
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    21 Aug '18 20:341 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Does Mchill believe that the Democratic Party could renominate Hillary Clinton and win in 2020?
    An interesting question, but impossible to determine at this point since we won't know the full extent of Russia's ties to Donald Trump, the NRA and by extension, the entire GOP for several more years until the legal process runs it's course. The wheels of justice turn slowly.
  8. Joined
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    21 Aug '18 22:06
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "...capitalism per se is not the problem."
    --JS357

    What's supposed to be 'capitalism per se'? The most original form of capitalism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

    "A closely related conception is that of raw/pure capitalism or unrestrained capitalism
    that refers to capitalism free of social regulations,[43] with low, minimal[44] ...[text shortened]... g profit."

    In capitalist economies, there's a thriving industry of apologias for capitalism.
    I do not suggest defining "capitalism per se" using the definition of Laissez Faire capitalism. If we are to define it, I suggest starting with the Wikipedia article which begins "Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3] Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system, and competitive markets.[4][5]"

    Starting this way, owner-specified deductions* from gross income for social equity and environmental costs can be envisioned before profits are calculated.

    *Of course this is an academic, perhaps naive, starting point,
  9. Standard memberlemon lime
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    22 Aug '18 00:11
    If free market capitalism was abolished altogether then what (other than forced labor) would be the mechanism for creating the wealth needed for distribution?
  10. Zugzwang
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    22 Aug '18 01:15
    Originally posted by @js357
    I do not suggest defining "capitalism per se" using the definition of Laissez Faire capitalism. If we are to define it, I suggest starting with the Wikipedia article which begins "Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3] Characteristics central to capitalism include private ...[text shortened]... before profits are calculated.

    *Of course this is an academic, perhaps naive, starting point,
    Almost all writers here grew up being thoroughly brainwashed by pro-capitalist propaganda.
    Almost all writers here would cheer on about any defense, however incoherent, of capitalism.

    It seems to me that most 'liberal' writers want to define capitalism narrowly or disingenuously
    in terms that would exclude all the inhumanity that historically has accompanied capitalism.
    I would submit that nothing in capitalism "per se" (in itself) is intrinsically bound with humane values.
  11. Joined
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    22 Aug '18 04:363 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Almost all writers here grew up being thoroughly brainwashed by pro-capitalist propaganda.
    Almost all writers here would cheer on about any defense, however incoherent, of capitalism.

    It seems to me that most 'liberal' writers want to define capitalism narrowly or disingenuously
    in terms that would exclude all the inhumanity that historically has acc ...[text shortened]... ubmit that nothing in capitalism "per se" (in itself) is intrinsically bound with humane values.
    "I would submit that nothing in capitalism "per se" (in itself) is intrinsically bound with humane values."

    Then we need to insist that the cost of furthering humane values be attached, even if "un-intrinsically," to the obligations of those wishing to prosper from investment in a capitalistic system. This is the essence of progressivism in a capitalistic economy.
  12. Zugzwang
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    22 Aug '18 19:142 edits
    Originally posted by @js357
    "I would submit that nothing in capitalism "per se" (in itself) is intrinsically bound with humane values."

    Then we need to insist that the cost of furthering humane values be attached, even if "un-intrinsically,"
    to the obligations of those wishing to prosper from investment in a capitalistic system.
    This is the essence of progressivism in a capitalistic economy.
    "Then we need to insist that the cost of furthering humane values be attached, even if "un-intrinsically,"..."
    --JS357

    For the record, JS357 wrote explicitly about "capitalism per se".
    Definition: "per se: by or in itself or themselves; intrinsically."
  13. Joined
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    22 Aug '18 22:172 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Then we need to insist that the cost of furthering humane values be attached, even if "un-intrinsically,"..."
    --JS357

    For the record, JS357 wrote explicitly about "capitalism per se".
    Definition: "per se: by or in itself or themselves; intrinsically."
    I believe it is legitimate for a democracy to saddle corporations wishing to operate within it, with financial costs that the corporation may not believe are "intrinsic" to its capitalistic business, such as for example the long-term sustainability of the physical environment of the host .country and measures to protect the work force economically to some degree in case the business goes belly up and exits the country. Of course the state has to realize that it is in competition with other states for the corporation's access to its resources and work force.

    This is an admittedly simplistic first-pass approach to progressivism in a global economy.
  14. Zugzwang
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    22 Aug '18 22:25
    Originally posted by @js357
    I believe it is legitimate for a democracy to saddle corporations wishing to operate within it, with financial costs that the corporation may not believe are "intrinsic" to its capitalistic business, such as for example the long-term sustainability of the physical environment of the host .country and measures to protect the work force economically to some deg ...[text shortened]... e.

    This is an admittedly simplistic first-pass approach to progressivism in a global economy.
    If JS357 wants to write an apologia for capitalism, then he may go ahead.
    But he should not pretend that it's for "capitalism per se" (his original words).

    "I've read opinion pieces making the point that *capitalism per se* is not the problem."
    --JS357
  15. Standard membershavixmir
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    22 Aug '18 22:45
    Originally posted by @js357
    I've read opinion pieces making the point that capitalism per se is not the problem, it is capitalism dominated continuous quest for (1) short term profits without (2) a measure of environmental impact and (3) equitable social distribution.
    Well, let’s try lots of different versions of capitalism... see how it pans out?

    Oh yeah. We did.
    And this is how it pans out.
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