It's like something out of a crappy 1950's sci-fi horror flick, isn't it?
Actually, so unbelievable that if you were watching a film about it, you'd be shaking your head and muttering: "Deary, deary me...someone should shoot the script writer for this shovel full of dung."
Let's sum this up then:
No. Europe shouldn't be trading weapons with China.
BUT, it is alright to trade weapons with Pakistan.
mhmmmm....
I wonder what's behind this whole exclusion of China thing? Could it be fear? Or do you reckon the US wants to trade weapons with China and is trying to block the EU from doing so? What could it mean?
And Pakistan. It's a well known fact that the US flirts with very dodgy characters to get their deals done. I'm not too sure about before the 2nd world war, but since then their list of allies and friends is quite impressive:
Sharon (mass murderer)
Osama Bin Laden (mass murderer)
Saddam Hussein (Mass murderer)
Every bloody right-wing psycho in Central and Southern America, most of whom were trained by the CIA at SOA Georgia (Mass murderers)
Pinochet, who deserves a special mention (mass murderer)
The Saudi royal family (dictators)
Well, the list is quite endless...
Anyways, Condola Condoleezza (if that isn't a trailer trash name, I don't know what is. I'm sure they dropped the "Sue" part of it to make her more acceptable. Condola-sue) has struck a deal to trade F16's with Pakistan and India is up in arms about it.
I wonder why? Why would India be worried?
Could it be Pakistan's nuclear capability? Their harbouring of terrorists, their terrorist training camps (there were always more in Pakistan than in Afghanistan), the General (who took power in a coup), the treatment of women (second grade citizens)??? What could it be?
Obviously India is just a little worried, I mean it can't be more than 30 years ago that the Watergate scoundrel and his right wing scumbag Kissinger gave Pakistan the nod...to bomb India....
See. Some of us do read history and see little patterns of concern emerging....
I'm so glad our safety is in the hand of big weapons manufacturers. I really, really am!
isn't the offer to both pakistan and india?
what is wrong with that? whoever has a little more spare cash should ethically be able to kill 100's of millions - according to capitalism ... you are a capitalist arent you?
best of all: both india and pakistan can destroy, and a little cash is handed over by both countries to the us... and the us gets its machinery where it wants it ... without potential loss of us lives.
http://www.newsindia.com/breaking_news/28225.asp
"If India refuses F16 Pakistan may follow
Mar. 16, 2005
According to sources close to Islamabad, Pakistan may refuse the F16 offer from America if india refuses the same. The administration of U.S. President George W. Bush is willing to sell F-16 fighter aircraft to both India and Pakistan, The Wall Street Journal reported March 15. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice reportedly will give Indian and Pakistani leaders the news when she visits the region later in March. "
as for china: you have heard of the china containment policy haven't you?
ohh ... and both india and pakistan border china.
Originally posted by flexmorehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4384597.stm
isn't the offer to both pakistan and india?
what is wrong with that? whoever has a little more spare cash should ethically be able to kill 100's of millions - according to capitalism ... you are a capitalist arent you?
best of all: both india and pakistan can destroy, and a little cash is handed over.
http://www.newsindia.com/breaking_news/28225.asp ...[text shortened]... later in March. "
as for china: you have heard of the china containment policy haven't you?
And for historical details:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=32&ItemID=2821
http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocide1971/chaps/kiss_71.htm
Originally posted by shavixmiri reckon that the u.s.a. will be fearful of, and aggressive towards any genuine competitor.
....
I wonder what's behind this whole exclusion of China thing? Could it be fear? Or do you reckon the US wants to trade weapons with China and is trying to block the EU from doing so? What could it mean? ....
and the u.s.a. will want maximal trade links in any form with everyone else.
the only two serious competitors are the united states of europe, and china.
Originally posted by flexmoreIt is a multi-purpose fighter. It can deliver bombs or dogfight. However, it isn't used to deliver nuclear weapons. Pakistans doesn't need planes to deliver nuclear weapons on India. Their medium range missiles are more than capable of deliverying nukes to every inch of India.
another thought .. what does the f16 represent?
i think it is a dogfight machine ... it destroys enemy airplanes.
i think it is not an especially powerful nuclear strike delivery plane.
As for the offer being open to India; I haven't heard anything about that. I'm sure Condaleeza Rice with Chicken would be more than happy to sell India F-16s but they didn't make the offer to India as far as I know.
But Shav's points are well placed. Pakistan is hardly the type of country that one would want to sell advanced weapons systems to. It is just another example of the US (my country) being short-sighted to further an agenda.
Originally posted by shavixmirIndia is an emerging nation economically. That is the u.s. governments' pet hate. So is China. If the u.s. can contribute armaments to both sides, then a long drawn out war may insue, as they did with Iraq and Iran. That would damage Indian growth. I guess the u.s. can hope that a stray bomb might land in china as well, which would draw them into war, which would also (hopefully from the u.s. point of view) damage their economy.
It's like something out of a crappy 1950's sci-fi horror flick, isn't it?
Actually, so unbelievable that if you were watching a film about it, you'd be shaking your head and muttering: "Deary, deary me...someone should shoot the script writer for this shovel full of dung."
Let's sum this up then:
No. Europe shouldn't be trading weapons with ...[text shortened]... ...
I'm so glad our safety is in the hand of big weapons manufacturers. I really, really am!
D
Originally posted by RagnorakThat't thinking waaay outside the box, no? You have to look at it from the flip side of the coin: an economically strong India and China may help the U.S. import American-made goods into those two countries instead of the otherway around...even 'crack' is made in China these days it seems...I agree that selling F-16s to Pakistan is warped...I wouldn't sell them blanks.....
India is an emerging nation economically. That is the u.s. governments' pet hate. So is China. If the u.s. can contribute armaments to both sides, then a long drawn out war may insue, as they did with Iraq and Iran. That would damage Indian growth. I guess the u.s. can hope that a stray bomb might land in china as well, which would draw them into war, which would also (hopefully from the u.s. point of view) damage their economy.
D
Originally posted by Nyxiehere is a bangladesh view:
Condaleeza set this up eh?
I believe the fighters in question were paid for back in the early 90's.
Nyxie
from
http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_16940.shtml
"F16 sale to Pakistan, gas pipeline to Iran: Rice’s visit to India hits nag
By Agencies, New Delhi
Mar 16, 2005, 12:33
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit to India as part of a shift toward closer ties hit potentially serious snags Wednesday over a pipeline from Iran and possible sales of F-16 jets to Pakistan.
As she held talks in New Delhi, India announced that Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf would visit next month to attend a cricket match between the national teams, his first trip to India in four years.
Rice told her hosts Washington -- seeking to apply pressure on Iran over what it says is a secret nuclear weapons program -- was concerned over plans for a $4 billion gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan to energy-hungry India.
"We have communicated to the Indian government our concerns about the gas pipeline cooperation between Iran and India," she told reporters after meeting Foreign Minister Natwar Singh on the opening leg of her first trip to Asia as secretary of state.
Rice said U.S. relations with both India and Pakistan had never been better, which she said had helped the neighbors in their year-old peace process.
Meanwhile, US President George W. Bush has invited Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to visit the United States, a spokesman said.
The invitation was extended by visiting Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice during a meeting in the Indian capital, foreign ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna told reporters on Wednesday.
Rice met Singh for a one-on-one meeting which lasted about 25 minutes, during which she conveyed Bush's "personal admiration for vibrancy of the Indian democracy," Sarna said.
A Indian government official said Musharraf would come to India on the occasion of a one-day match in New Delhi on April 17, a move which could add momentum to peace efforts.
"More important than the match, I would like to meet the Indian leadership," Musharraf told the BBC in an interview broadcast Tuesday. "I know that they do, there is a desire on their side also. I look forward to making this meeting a little more concrete to move the process forward."
Indo-Pakistani tensions have eased since the two sides began talks last year aimed at ending half a century of enmity.
But New Delhi has opposed U.S. arms sales to Pakistan including F-16 fighters, saying these were aimed against India.
"We did express our concern on certain matters on the defense issue as to how it might create some complications ... our views on F-16s are well known," Foreign Minister Singh told a joint news conference.
Washington is considering selling F-16s to India as well. "The question of arms sales, including F-16s, has come up. I don't expect there will be any announcement on this," Rice said, before flying to Islamabad where she is due to meet Musharraf.
The move to sell fighters to India and Pakistan would be a major policy shift for the United States and a final step toward tacit acceptance of both nations' possession of nuclear weapons.
Washington sold F-16s to Pakistan in the 1980s when Islamabad helped drive the Soviets from Afghanistan. Deliveries were halted in 1990 after a U.S. law barred military exports to Pakistan which was suspected of possessing a nuclear device. India and Pakistan both conducted nuclear test blasts in 1998.
The United States is now signaling its willingness to discuss civilian nuclear energy cooperation with India, which is struggling to cope with the energy demands of a booming economy.
Washington wants to begin talks on how India can meet its energy demands, including through possible U.S.-Indian cooperation in civilian nuclear power, said a senior State Department official who asked not be named.
President Bush accuses Iran of seeking to develop nuclear weapons, bracketing it with North Korea and pre-war Iraq in a so-called axis of evil. Tehran says its nuclear program is intended only to generate electricity.
India, which has ancient ties with Iran, said it was talking with Tehran about a pipeline to meet its huge energy needs despite U.S. concerns.
"We have no problem of any kind with Iran," Singh said. "The energy requirements of India are growing exponentially in the years to come as we become more and more industrialized."
Indian Oil Minister Mani Shankar Aiyar said India needed Iranian gas as it was a relatively cheap source of energy. Aiyar acknowledged, however, that the Iran project faced obstacles including lingering concerns over the safety of a pipeline running through nuclear rival Pakistan.
"I don't think the path is going to be smooth. The security community of India has a less rosy picture about Pakistan. Apprehensions are still there," he said at a book release function. "
so it seems that iran is involved here.
india is very worried about energy supplies ... and would reward both pakistan and iran well for setting up the pipeline.
iran, pakistan and india could get together on a major project and move ahead to peaceful (global warming) prosperity.
are these the moves the us must make, to separate iran from pakistan and india - so that it is free to attack iran?
Originally posted by flexmoreThank you for that clarification.
here is a bangladesh view:
from
http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_16940.shtml
"F16 sale to Pakistan, gas pipeline to Iran: Rice’s visit to India hits nag
By Agencies, New Delhi
Mar 16, 2005, 12:33
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit to India as part of a shift toward closer ties hit potentially serious snags Wednesday over a ...[text shortened]... picture about Pakistan. Apprehensions are still there," he said at a book release function. "