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Debates Forum

  1. 06 Jan '14 23:12
    I guess the US had the best medical care in the world before Obamacare.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    06 Jan '14 23:29 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I guess the US had the best medical care in the world before Obamacare.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/
    The cancer survival rates mentioned are from data in the 1990s (go to the "Concord" link in the article). And it's cherry picking to simply exclude fatal accidents and other causes of deaths (which is the only way the title of the thread is even arguably true).

    At best, the data shows that American get equivalent results at much higher costs.
  3. 06 Jan '14 23:45
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I guess the US had the best medical care in the world before Obamacare.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/
    cancer. that's it. that's all there is in that idiotic, biased link. no mention of diabetes, no mention of people without medical insurance, no nothing. excluding fatal injuries is also idiotic. rape victim gets billed for ambulance ride because she didn't have the right medical insurance.

    he also has the audacity to mention how people affording good medical insurance have a higher life expectancy. well, freakin duh. we were however talking about US life expectancy, not US fairly rich people life expectancy.

    also if you look at the per-capita spending figures, the US spends 84% more than Canada, 102% more than Germany, and a whopping 176% more than Japan (http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/OECD042111.cfm).




    so in conclusion: if we get rid of all the factors that don't agree with my claim, i can say anything.

    nazi germany was the best place to live. if you would just ignore what happened to the jews. and the gays, the insane, retarded, the gypsies and anyone who wasn't a nazi.
  4. 07 Jan '14 00:08
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The cancer survival rates mentioned are from data in the 1990s (go to the "Concord" link in the article). And it's cherry picking to simply exclude fatal accidents and other causes of deaths (which is the only way the title of the thread is even arguably true).

    At best, the data shows that American get equivalent results at much higher costs.
    Fatal care accidents have nothing to do with health care. It has to do with the number of people driving cars. Why should car deaths be place in the health care debate?
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    07 Jan '14 00:09
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Fatal care accidents have nothing to do with health care. It has to do with the number of people driving cars. Why should car deaths be place in the health care debate?
    Do people in car accidents usually get treated by doctors?
  6. 07 Jan '14 01:29
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    cancer. that's it. that's all there is in that idiotic, biased link. no mention of diabetes, no mention of people without medical insurance, no nothing. .
    Cancer is idiotic? Try 1 out of every 2 people get cancer. Do you want long waits while it eats your body from the inside out and begins to spread? Do you want treatments withheld that the state deems innapropriate or they say re not needed?

    I've heard of more than one case where people come to the US to get certain treatments that were not offered in countries with state run health care or those seeking treatment sooner.
  7. 07 Jan '14 01:31
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    nazi germany was the best place to live. if you would just ignore what happened to the jews. and the gays, the insane, retarded, the gypsies and anyone who wasn't a nazi.
    Germany was the first country to mandate health coverage.

    In my mind, Hitler cared as much for the Germans health as the present US government. It's all about control.
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    07 Jan '14 01:42
    Originally posted by whodey
    Germany was the first country to mandate health coverage.

    In my mind, Hitler cared as much for the Germans health as the present US government. It's all about control.
    Germany didn't mandate health coverage until 2007.http://www.hpm.org/en/Surveys/TU_Berlin_-_D/13/Mandatory_health_insurance_enacted.html
  9. 07 Jan '14 08:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    Cancer is idiotic? Try 1 out of every 2 people get cancer. Do you want long waits while it eats your body from the inside out and begins to spread? Do you want treatments withheld that the state deems innapropriate or they say re not needed?

    I've heard of more than one case where people come to the US to get certain treatments that were not offered in countries with state run health care or those seeking treatment sooner.
    do you understand the point i tried to make? or it would mess up your counter-argument too much?

    the author of the article, pretty much like your yourself did in your reply to me, only took the data that suited him, ignored the rest, then declared US no 1!!!!!.

    there are thousands other conditions you could die from. there are thousands other conditions one doesn't die from but experiences a greatly diminished life quality. and can suffer complications and die from those.


    "I've heard of more than one case where people come to the US to get certain treatments"
    people with money. lots of money. that wasn't argued. nobody sane is arguing that the americans pay a butload for their medical care AND it is crappy. of course a mexican with lots off money could benefit from a more modern american private clinic.

    the problem with the US is when poor people get sick. or middle class without the right insurance.



    according to that article, us ranks number 1 in life expectancy from cancer. that is all you can claim.
  10. 07 Jan '14 08:56
    Originally posted by whodey
    Germany was the first country to mandate health coverage.

    In my mind, Hitler cared as much for the Germans health as the present US government. It's all about control.
    again you missed the point.
  11. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    07 Jan '14 09:21 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I guess the US had the best medical care in the world before Obamacare.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy/
    I like how there are two tables: one for ACTUAL life expectancies (which put the US at #19), and then the *ahem* "standardized" life expectancies. Christ, it's like reading a capitalist version of Pravda. Who reads this crap?
  12. 07 Jan '14 10:03
    It's stated that there are currently three kinds of healthcare in the US:

    - Private
    - Medicare
    - Uninsured and Medicaid

    and that Private is the best in terms of life expectancy whereas Uninsured and Medicaid is the worst.

    The article then goes on to say that when comparing Private insurance to "central-planned", "the argument that socialized medicine leads to longer life evaporates."

    But Private insurance doesn't disappear, does it? So the best will remain, whereas the worst will be replaced by the second best (or second worst in the worldview of conservatives).

    Is this correct?
  13. 07 Jan '14 11:07
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Do people in car accidents usually get treated by doctors?
    People killed in car accidents generally don't get treated by doctors.
  14. Subscriber Ponderable
    chemist
    07 Jan '14 11:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Germany was the first country to mandate health coverage.

    In my mind, Hitler cared as much for the Germans health as the present US government. It's all about control.
    Krankenversicherung was instated in 1883...even before Hitlers birth.

    This was more or less madatory but with some notable exceptions. All self-employed for example. The peoplenot in the insurance by 2007 where mostly self-employed people who didn't make enough to buy private insurance and where not eligible for "official" insurance. That menas for example artists, philosophers,...
  15. 07 Jan '14 11:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ponderable
    Krankenversicherung was instated in 1883...even before Hitlers birth.
    wow and America still have not caught up to Europe since like 130 years, ouch.