Debates
06 Jul 23
06 Jul 23
I'm not morally against prostitution or drug use but I'm not in favor complete legalization of them.
Prostitution just seems ripe for sexual abuse of women. It's just inevitable that horror stories of women being taken advantage of would spike if prostitution were legal. I think prostitution could work in a brothel setting that follows legal regulations but not on an individual basis like some guy selling his wife.
The sale of hard drugs should be criminalized but not the use of them. The law should focus on drug pushers rather than drug users.
06 Jul 23
@athousandyoung saidI don't think there's such thing as a victimless crime only acts that shouldn't be criminalized in the first place, like sodomy laws.
What is a victimless crime? Do they exist?
06 Jul 23
@vivify saidIf there's a law against it, it's a crime.
I don't think there's such thing as a victimless crime only acts that shouldn't be criminalized in the first place, like sodomy laws.
06 Jul 23
@vivify saidThe same sort of logic can be applied to sodomy laws as you apply to prostitution laws. What if a guy was offering his wife's butt to his friends?
I don't think there's such thing as a victimless crime only acts that shouldn't be criminalized in the first place, like sodomy laws.
06 Jul 23
@athousandyoung saidThere's no potential social ill that can from sodomy but there's a world of problems that come with prostitution.
The same sort of logic can be applied to sodomy laws as you apply to prostitution laws. What if a guy was offering his wife's butt to his friends?
06 Jul 23
@vivify saidI don't think that is self-evident. You would need to argue that point.
There's no potential social ill that can from sodomy but there's a world of problems that come with prostitution.
Do you think there is more abuse of women in Nevada and the Netherlands than in other places?
06 Jul 23
@athousandyoung saidI think of the term "victimless crime" as meaning not actually okay to do (morally or legally) but ultimately no one else is harmed. In that sense I can't of any action that could fit the definition.
If there's a law against it, it's a crime.
Maybe suicide comes the closest in areas where it's illegal.
06 Jul 23
1 edit
@athousandyoung saidhttps://time.com/5712420/amsterdam-red-light-district-change/
I don't think that is self-evident. You would need to argue that point.
Do you think there is more abuse of women in Nevada and the Netherlands than in other places?
Sex trafficking affects many girls and women in Amsterdam which is why the mayor wanted to pass laws targeting the Red Light District. I first became aware of this when my wife was a volunteer helping to build a shelter for sex trafficking victims in Amsterdam.
I don't know about Nevada though I'm pretty confident some minimal Googling will show similar problems there as well.
06 Jul 23
1 edit
@vivify saidThat article has problems. When it offers links to it's sources it turns out that the links are about sex trafficking in the USA.
https://time.com/5712420/amsterdam-red-light-district-change/
Sex trafficking affects many girls and women in Amsterdam which is why the mayor wanted to pass laws targeting the Red Light District. I first became aware of this when my wife was a volunteer helping to build a shelter for sex trafficking victims in Amsterdam.
I don't know about Nevada though I'm pretty confident some minimal Googling will show similar problems there as well.
Soon, Halsema plans to go further. To alleviate congestion in the area and combat sex trafficking, she has suggested
If you click on the "sex trafficking" link you get this:
https://time.com/5217280/sex-trafficking-fosta-craigstlist-reddit/
It was the summer after his sophomore year in college when Luke finally found the nerve to have sex with another man. He’d grappled with his sexuality since his adolescence in Southern California: He knew he was attracted to men, but he was also the son of two church leaders he felt would surely disown him....So he went to Craigslist...
The above has nothing to do with the Netherlands.
When it says it has higher numbers of sex trafficking than other nations, it turns out the Netherlands counts sex trafficking victims differently.
It is also hard to know if the problem is worse than in other countries, warns Brian Varma, manager at CoMensha, a Dutch non-profit that gathers data on trafficking. “In the E.U., every member state has its own methods for measuring victims,” he says. The Netherlands registers everyone presumed to be a victim by authorities, including some people who have declined to be formally or legally identified as trafficked. “Other countries, for example Germany or France, only register identified victims. That is why our numbers are higher,“ Varma says.
In any case, prostitution can be legal while sex trafficking is illegal. Alcohol consumption is legal, but we've all heard stories of drunk men abusing their wives and children. Etc.
@vivify saidThe red light district is being targetted, because people live there and are sick of kerb crawlers and drunk people roaming around all night.
https://time.com/5712420/amsterdam-red-light-district-change/
Sex trafficking affects many girls and women in Amsterdam which is why the mayor wanted to pass laws targeting the Red Light District. I first became aware of this when my wife was a volunteer helping to build a shelter for sex trafficking victims in Amsterdam.
I don't know about Nevada though I'm pretty confident some minimal Googling will show similar problems there as well.
Sex trafficking is a problem. It’s a problem everywhere.
Unionizing prostitution tackles part of the problem (so prostitutes can only legally practise their trade if they’re in a union… it’s basically a protective bubble, securing income, obligatory STD testing).
However, there are men (hate to break it to ya all, but men are the driving force behind this malarkey) who have “special needs” and that can never be put in a legal construction. And that drives sex trafficking, whether prostitution is legalised or not.
Drugs should be completely legalised, tested and taxed. Bring it in line with tobacco and alcohol. Destroys 70% of crime in 1 go. The freed up resources can then be put to better use.
Keeping drugs illegal creates victims.
Say you take 10 kilos of heroin off the streets (major drugs bust!!! Woooo!!!).
That means less drugs, same amount of users… price goes… up…
This means the bad guys have to sell less, to make the same profit. Or… and this happens readily… they cut the drugs with lesser quality products… making the drugs weaker. Users get used to that level of quality. If quality goes up, they overdose.
And that’s just 1 example of the problems with illegalised drugs.
Vagrancy has a lot to do with mental health issues. It also leads to begging, stealing, disturbances on the street, etc.
I’m not sure what sodomy’s got to do with anything though.
@athousandyoung saidWhether The Netherland's numbers are higher doesn't change that we can identify the Red Light district as a specific catalyst of sex trafficking in Amsterdam. If the Mafia moves into your neighborhood and crime goes up, the overall numbers don't matter when faced with a known cause.
That article has problems. When it offers links to it's sources it turns out that the links are about sex trafficking in the USA. When it says it has higher numbers of sex trafficking than other nations, it turns out the Netherlands counts sex trafficking victims differently.
It is also hard to know if the problem is worse than in other countries, warns Bri ...[text shortened]... r France, only register identified victims. That is why our numbers are higher,“ Varma says.
In any case, prostitution can be legal while sex trafficking is illegal. Alcohol consumption is legal, but we've all heard stories of drunk men abusing their wives and children. Etc.
True, and a good point. But people impaired by drug use is not comparable to criminals deliberately plotting the trafficking of women. Still, I get what you're saying; just because an opportunity for criminality arises that doesn't mean what caused the opportunity is necessarily bad; jewelry shouldn't be illegal just because someone might try to rob you.
But this takes me back to what I said earlier: I think prostitution could work in an organized setting like a brothel subject to regulation; but prostitution seems like a bad idea when left up to individuals with no oversight. *As far as I'm aware*, Red Light district prostitutes work independently of any government oversight.
@shavixmir saidAgree 100 percent.
Unionizing prostitution tackles part of the problem (so prostitutes can only legally practise their trade if they’re in a union… it’s basically a protective bubble, securing income, obligatory STD testing).
Keeping drugs illegal creates victims.
Say you take 10 kilos of heroin off the streets (major drugs bust!!! Woooo!!!).
That means less drugs, same amount of users… price goes… up…
This means the bad guys have to sell less, to make the same profit. Or… and this happens readily… they cut the drugs with lesser quality products… making the drugs weaker. Users get used to that level of quality. If quality goes up, they overdose.
And that’s just 1 example of the problems with illegalised drugs.
Some issues with this.
First, the nature of hard drugs like heroin in of themselves lead to criminality. If you're strung out on smack you may not be able to hold down a job, which in turn could lead to homeless and criminal activity like stealing money for food.
More importantly, deaths from overdosing will spike if drugs are inexpensive and legal. Over time users of hard drugs need more in order to get the high their body craves. Even a that addict lives the potential mental and physical health problems are numerous.
There are endless scenarios: like parents of small children on hard drugs. I can't imagine such children can realistically be raised in a safe, healthy environment. And if their parents die from overdosing what happens to the child?
Some drugs just shouldn't be available to the public.
06 Jul 23
@vivify saidThe public is going to use the drugs, whether they are illegal or not.
Agree 100 percent.
[quote]Keeping drugs illegal creates victims.
Say you take 10 kilos of heroin off the streets (major drugs bust!!! Woooo!!!).
That means less drugs, same amount of users… price goes… up…
This means the bad guys have to sell less, to make the same profit. Or… and this happens readily… they cut the drugs with lesser quality products… making the drugs w ...[text shortened]... from overdosing what happens to the child?
Some drugs just shouldn't be available to the public.
Keeping them illegal, creates masses amounts of crime and costs the tax payer literally billions each year to combat.
Having them legal, destroys more than 70% of crime, especially cartel-like crime, dealer crime, etc. And ensures a standard quality, which is healthier for users.
If they legalize heroin, are you going to shoot up? Nope. The only people who will are doing it anyway.
06 Jul 23
@vivify saidAt the very least there needs to be registration of prostitutes if only to ensure that sex trafficked girls are not being raped by punters, if you have sex with an unregistered prostitute you go to jail and move on to a sex register afterwards.
Whether The Netherland's numbers are higher doesn't change that we can identify the Red Light district as a specific catalyst of sex trafficking in Amsterdam. If the Mafia moves into your neighborhood and crime goes up, the overall numbers don't matter when faced with a known cause.
[b]In any case, prostitution can be legal while sex trafficking is illegal. Alcohol consu ...[text shortened]... s far as I'm aware*, Red Light district prostitutes work independently of any government oversight.
Punters shouldn’t be able to rape forcibly sex trafficked women and underage girls and use the fig leaf prostitution.