29 Nov 04
As much as I like to avoid discussing religion I will invite athiests to give fair and open views about Christians and other faiths in this thread. Particular emphasis on raising children in their faith.
Today at a hospital I saw a woman dressed all in black, top to bottom sitting next to a child I assume to be her brother. As I have known some satanists, I would gather she was one. A few minutes later another woman sat next to her, this woman I discovered through conversation to be her mother. Also dressed in black, fingernails black ect. The conversation the mother was discussing infront of her son (I would guess a 7 year old) was about how drunk she got a few nights ago and proceeded to describe some sexual detail I care not to bring up. As this is infront of her 7 year old son, I found it particularly unsettleing.
It got me thinking, that this could very well be a family of satanists. The child seemed completely normal, however I would gather would also be brought up in the same belief. I then proceeded to think whether my contempt for this family and behaviour around the child was what athiests feel around Christian families ? As such, I was trying to think whether I was brought up specifically believing any beliefs that would upset athiests, or whether I would bring my own children up to believe certain things athiests find disturbing.
My view was that my children would be brought up to believe in God, however they would at no point be forced to accept this belief. Afterall, that entirely defies the point of having faith. Furthermore, they would not judge those 'outside' the church, but only those in the same Church. I believe judging those 'in' the church is essential. It would be a requirement for any organisation to share a similar belief. For the freethinker it is impossible to forgo rationale thinking and still consider oneself a freethinker, as for the Christian, it is impossible to ignore a command from their God and still claim membership to Christianity. In that way, I believe Christianity in theory is a fairly 'good' belief, not only for its members, but also those outside it's membership. Ofcourse you may disagree by stating certain examples, but I challenge you to judge the faith itself, not specific examples (eg: spanish enquisition ect).
note. There are plenty of other threads to complain about Christianity, I would like sincere comments instead, specifically aimed at 'indoctrination' of children.
thanks
29 Nov 04
3 edits
Originally posted by pcaspianI'll start with one: the notion of hell.
There are plenty of other threads to complain about Christianity, I would like sincere comments instead, specifically aimed at 'indoctrination' of children.
Children are indoctrinated to believe that their non-Christian friends, all of those who have not been baptized and don't believe in Jesus, such as the Jews they go to school with, will eternally burn in hell.
Further, to a child with a yet-to-be-formed rational mind, the notion of this hell is essentially equivalent to forcing belief on the child, for what child would choose to reject Jesus if his parents tell him that means burning in hell instead of prospering in heaven forever with his parents? You claim to leave the child a choice, but realistically, that is not the case. To an objective observer who does not presuppose the existence of hell, this would be seen as a cheap scare tactic.
Kribz
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by KribzI am not an athiest, but I feel inclined to reply to this thread. As I am a non-christian theist married to a christian woman and father of a little girl, I would like to share my opinion on the idea of hell.
I'll start with one: the notion of hell.
Children are indoctrinated to believe that their non-Christian friends, all of those who have not been baptized and don't believe in Jesus, such as the Jews they go to school with, will eternally burn in hell.
Further, to a child with a yet-to-be-formed rational mind, the notion of this hell is essentially equi ...[text shortened]... does not presuppose the existence of hell, this would be seen as a cheap scare tactic.
Kribz
For me hell is simply seperation from God, and Heaven cumulation with God. Hell therefore is not a place that anyone can burn in for all eternity. For someone who withes to have closeness to God, then hell of course would be the worst punishment imaginable. For someone who feels no draw to God, or rejects that draw, Hell would mean less.
There are many sects of Christianity that do believe that hell is a very real place that stands ready to recieve anyone who does not accept their particular brand of truth and apply punishment to those poor souls forever. If you are going to offer your child a choice, it is a valid point to consider--if your child does not follow your path, will he/she burn in hell?
29 Nov 04
2 edits
Originally posted by Jamie LyonnaisWell, I think pcaspian has started a very worthwhile thread. An unavoidable consequence of having a child is that you can't simply take all of your beliefs and keep them to yourself; a key parental duty is providing guidance to and sharing wisdom with your child. The catch is that you have to make concrete choices when doing this, but a problem arises in that there are no objectively "correct" choices. What the Satanists see as basic and true, pcaspian sees as abusive indoctrination; what pcaspican sees as basic and true, athiests might see as abusive indoctrination; and so on, between any two differing belief systems.
Faith is a force of belief. I have faith in science because it dosent lie.
If you want religion read a book and keep it to yourself.
'Keep it to yourself' is poor parental advice, I think. It's tantamount to "Don't be a parent."
It's a real Catch-22, to be sure, which makes this a worthwhile thread to explore this issue.
Kribz
29 Nov 04
1 edit
Originally posted by pcaspianI grew up as a Southern Baptist. Church and Sunday School every Sunday, prayer meetings on Wednesday nights. My dad was a Deacon in the church and sang in the choir. My mom was a Sunday scool teacher. We went to the "revival" every time they had one and I attended Vacation Bible school in the summer when I wasn't in elementary school or high school. I was even in the Royal Ambassadors. Which is a very religous version of the Boy Scouts if you can imagine that.
As much as I like to avoid discussing religion I will invite athiests to give fair and open views about Christians and other faiths in this thread. Particular emphasis on raising children in their faith.
Today at a hospital I saw a wom ...[text shortened]... d, specifically aimed at 'indoctrination' of children.
thanks
So I got a lot of church time as a kid is what I'm saying.
One Sunday morning, I guess I was 15 or 16, I simply decided I had enough of church and religion. Just one of those teenage rebellious acts I suppose, but I was also questioning a lot of what the church was teaching. And so I said NO I'm not going to church. I'm staying home and enjoying my Sunday by laying around and watching football.
My mom went ballistic. We had a huge fight. But my dad decided I was old enough to make up my own mind. He intervened and decided I could do what I wanted. He never believed religion should be forced on anyone. It had to be chosen. It had to be received with open arms and wanted by the recipient or it was useless and wouldn't last anyway.
That was one of those great lessons I learned from my father.
I went back to church the following Sunday. But from then on it was my choice. I found that I missed my friends that were there. I missed hanging out afterwards in the community shelter where people would cook these huge pots of food, grill chicken, and bring delicious pies and deserts. I missed the experience.
So sometimes I attended and sometimes I didn't. But my dad was clear on one very important thing. I couldn't do it half-way. It was ok to miss a service, but I couldn't show up later just to eat and hang out. It was all or nothing on Sunday.
Eventually I drifted away from the church, but some of my favorite memories are sill from those days. A lot of those experiences and teachings still guide me today. Especially the lesson from my dad about choosing my own path.
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by wibYes, but does your father beieve you were going to burn in hell after you drifted away from the church? How did that affect your relationship? Do you think he felt that he failed in your case? Give us the juicy bits, man!
Eventually I drifted away from the church, but some of my favorite memories are sill from those days. A lot of those experiences and teachings still guide me today. Especially the lesson from my dad about choosing my own path.
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by pcaspianAs an aside, I tend to think that there are not too many "Satanists" in Kansas and perhaps you are just confusing these kids with Goth kids who merely dress that way for decoration. Goth culture is often erroneously mistaken for Satanism to those out-of-touch with "what's hip". And since most Goths are indeed atheists (or merely highly cynical), their belief in a Devil or Satan is contradictory.
As much as I like to avoid discussing religion I will invite athiests to give fair and open views about Christians and other faiths in this thread. Particular emphasis on raising children in their faith.
Today at a hospital I saw a woman dressed all in black, top to bottom sitting next to a child I assume to be her brother. As I have known some satanist ...[text shortened]... d like sincere comments instead, specifically aimed at 'indoctrination' of children.
thanks
Now to the subject matter, I had Christianity forced on me until I was 15 or 16. My mother made me attend Sunday school, sunday morning and sunday night services at the local Pentecostal church. I was also forced to attend the Friday night youth group (which is a whole case study in itself!). This total indoctrination led me to rebel very angrily against my mother's church. I began seeing a lot of hypocrisies and double standards. I was also at an age where drugs and rock and roll were a lot more enticing. Indeed this is probably why I am so cycnical about Christianity and more interested in "worldly" religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.
Speaking from experience, you can only push your kids so much. To raise them to accept your own faith is only natural but there comes a time when a child grows up and thinks for himself. It's your choice whether to accept his/her independence or squash it for fear of them going to hell. I am truly thankful my mother embraced my independence although I'm sure she still prays for my soul.
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by wibThis is very similar to my experiences with my mother, wib.
I grew up as a Southern Baptist. Church and Sunday School every Sunday, prayer meetings on Wednesday nights. My dad was a Deacon in the church and sang in the choir. My mom was a Sunday scool teacher. We went to the "revival" every time they had one and I attended Vacation Bible school in the summer when I wasn't in elementary school or high school. I wa ...[text shortened]... still guide me today. Especially the lesson from my dad about choosing my own path.
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by thesonofsaulMy dad was VERY disappointed in me. There was no doubt of that. But he also knew that making me attend church wasn't the answer. The answer was me wanting to attend. And I did continue for a few years, right up until I joined the Navy at 19. But he never forced me to attend. Sometimes I went to church, and sometimes I didn't.
Yes, but does your father beieve you were going to burn in hell after you drifted away from the church? How did that affect your relationship? Do you think he felt that he failed in your case? Give us the juicy bits, man!
I think my dad never fully believed that people who simply refused to get dunked in water or not go to church on Sunday were going to burn in fire and brimstone for all eternity. There are many types of Christians and I think I've met most of them. My dad believed in the teachings of Jesus. He believed the message. But that message can be interpreted many ways by many different people. My dad chose the peaceful and loving way. The way I believe it was intended.
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by darvlayInteresting, I grew up in a family of non-believers and I'm a Christian.
As an aside, I tend to think that there are not too many "Satanists" in Kansas and perhaps you are just confusing these kids with Goth kids who merely dress that way for decoration. Goth culture is often erroneously mistaken for Satanism to those out-of-touch with "what's hip". And since most Goths are indeed atheists (or merely highly cynical), their ...[text shortened]... ruly thankful my mother embraced my independence although I'm sure she still prays for my soul.
Go figure. 🙂
Kelly
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by darvlayYep. Almost identical experiences. I imagine there are lots of kids who grew up that way with the same questions about religion. It's only natural I think.
This is very similar to my experiences with my mother, wib.
My mother never cared for my pestering questions and concerns. 🙂 But my dad would sit and listen. He realized I wasn't questioning his "faith". He'd even answer some of my questions when he could. But a WHOLE lot of my questions had to be answered with faith. That's really where the problems started....
29 Nov 04
Originally posted by pcaspianI think maybe what we can at least agree on is that there are age-appropiate ways to share with children values ranging from faith to sex. The family you described, whatever their belief, was inappropiate in what you described. Are you sure they weren't some Amish people on crack?
As much as I like to avoid discussing religion I will invite athiests to give fair and open views about Christians and other faiths in this thread. Particular emphasis on raising children in their faith.
Today at a hospital I saw a woman dressed all in black, top to bottom sitting next to a child I assume to be her brother. As I have known some satanist ...[text shortened]... d like sincere comments instead, specifically aimed at 'indoctrination' of children.
thanks
29 Nov 04
arent we talking about religion??? Im a 20 year old pot smoker from canada what do i care about children or parental advice? lol I just simply forgot this thread belongs and is shared by old people so i am sorry for that matter. I know my grand mother woreships god or jesus or something like that and now shes gone crazy! She talks to her self all the time "god i think". I think this religiong thing is scary. Thats what i would tell my children. Whatever floats your boat son!