@no1marauder saidYeah and perhaps this time you can post an honest answer and agree that Putin did not invade Ukraine in order to prevent them from joining nato, that was done in 2014 just like he’s prevented Georgia joining by invading south assetia.
Do we really have to go over this AGAIN?
He invaded Ukraine because it’s the jewel in the old tsarist empire and that is what he has always intended to do. You can pretend to be stupid for Putin if you like but do not insist that others join you.
@no1marauder saidWell that’s a lie, what they’ve said repeatedly is that anyone is entitled to apply to join and will be accepted as long as they meet the criteria and Ukraine have not met the criteria of not being involved in an ongoing conflict since 2014. What NATO quite rightly does not accept is Russia or anyone else outside NATO vetoing another sovereign state from joining or applying to join NATO.
This is a useless, legalistic argument.
NATO officials have made it clear that IF Ukraine decides to join, it will be allowed to. They said it in 2008. Then the country elected a President who opposed NATO membership in 2010, so the issue lie dormant until 2014 when he was overthrown in an illegal coup, Shortly after that coup:
"The door remains open for Ukraine to ...[text shortened]... s and the Ukraine have been "re-evaluated".
You're either being incredibly naïve or disingenuous.
@no1marauder saidAnd you misrepresented reality again to cover up the blatant error of your original stance that Russia would not invade Ukraine even whilst Putin built up his invasion force on Ukraines border 🙄
I hardly care about the errors that what you think "most posters" here would make.
I speculated about what may have caused the Russian invasion in February in the thread I already linked to. I never said "THE reason" was "aggressive NATO expansion". That factor has surely aggravated the situation has had NATO's metamorphosis into a tool of neocon ambitions to cement permanent Western worldwide domination, however and it is dishonest to claim otherwise.
So then you had to deflect the blame into your favourite boogeyman without explaining what they did in the very short space of time between you claiming that they wouldn’t and them actually invading.
You should really accept by now that your analytical skills have deserted you on the whole Russia / Ukraine thing.
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@no1marauder saidI guess you missed the “UNANIMOUS’,thing, even Sweden and Finland are going to have to do some horse trading to get around Erdogan’s potential veto. With actual territorial disputes between Ukraine and Russia they were never getting to join until Russia itself facilitated it, like Putin your whole NATO rationale for his empire reclamation project is utter nonsense and given the rape, murder, torture and mayhem being visited upon Ukraine actually quite disgusting.
The point is there is no requirement that MAP be used at all, so your whole "procedural" argument is BS.
IF NATO countries want to let in the Ukraine in the near future, they can. Here's what the NATO Charter says:
Article 10
[b]The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to con ...[text shortened]...
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty
That's it; everything else can be waived.
@kevcvs57 saidI made no such "original stance"; this is another lie that you keep parading about in this Forum.
And you misrepresented reality again to cover up the blatant error of your original stance that Russia would not invade Ukraine even whilst Putin built up his invasion force on Ukraines border 🙄
So then you had to deflect the blame into your favourite boogeyman without explaining what they did in the very short space of time between you claiming that they wouldn’t and them ...[text shortened]... lly accept by now that your analytical skills have deserted you on the whole Russia / Ukraine thing.
@kevcvs57 saidThat's utter and complete nonsense; I've given several cites where NATO officials have stated that Ukraine is going to be a member after 2014. None have ever stated that the ongoing conflict in the Donbass had to be settled before membership.
Well that’s a lie, what they’ve said repeatedly is that anyone is entitled to apply to join and will be accepted as long as they meet the criteria and Ukraine have not met the criteria of not being involved in an ongoing conflict since 2014. What NATO quite rightly does not accept is Russia or anyone else outside NATO vetoing another sovereign state from joining or applying to join NATO.
You guys really just make s**t up.
@kevcvs57 saidYour policy preferences will insure that much more "rape, murder, torture and mayhem" will be visited on the People of the Ukraine. That country is being destroyed with tens of thousands of death and counting, close to a 1/3 of its People being domestic or external refugees and its economy (which was in poor shape anyway) being bankrupted. And your choice is to keep the war going in the vain hope some smashing military victory can be achieved against Russia's superior military and economic resources.
I guess you missed the “UNANIMOUS’,thing, even Sweden and Finland are going to have to do some horse trading to get around Erdogan’s potential veto. With actual territorial disputes between Ukraine and Russia they were never getting to join until Russia itself facilitated it, like Putin your whole NATO rationale for his empire reclamation project is utter nonsense and given the rape, murder, torture and mayhem being visited upon Ukraine actually quite disgusting.
"Fight to the last Ukrainian" seems to be kev's motto.
Realistic peace talks are needed NOW without preconditions.
@no1marauder saidNo that’s actually the Ukrainian motto, and that’s why Putin is ultimately going to get his ass handed to him in Ukraine.
Your policy preferences will insure that much more "rape, murder, torture and mayhem" will be visited on the People of the Ukraine. That country is being destroyed with tens of thousands of death and counting, close to a 1/3 of its People being domestic or external refugees and its economy (which was in poor shape anyway) being bankrupted. And your choice is to keep the w ...[text shortened]... Ukrainian" seems to be kev's motto.
Realistic peace talks are needed NOW without preconditions.
This idea that you get Putin to the negotiating table by cutting off the Ukrainian armies access to the weapons they need to defend the territory they have left is one of your sillier and more obvious pro Putin assertions.
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@no1marauder saidNo I don’t think you have and even if you did one random reps opinion does not mean diddlysquat.
That's utter and complete nonsense; I've given several cites where NATO officials have stated that Ukraine is going to be a member after 2014. None have ever stated that the ongoing conflict in the Donbass had to be settled before membership.
You guys really just make s**t up.
Care to explain why Ukraine and Georgia are not in nato even though they’ve applied.
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@no1marauder saidhttps://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/18/russia-ukraine-live-updates.html
And if they decide the Ukraine does then they can invite it in; no need for any extra steps.
Finland and Sweden formally applied to join NATO on Wednesday marking another step toward the Western military alliance’s expansion, although the full accession process could take a year
Someone should tell Sweden and Finland that there's "no need for extra steps".
@kevcvs57 saidSome nations have waited over 20 years after applying to become accepted. Certain conditions must be met.
No I don’t think you have and even if you did one random reps opinion does not mean diddlysquat.
Care to explain why Ukraine and Georgia are not in nato even though they’ve applied.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/nato-membership-requires-long-multi-step-process/2590397
@metal-brain saidLiar! No extra steps are needed!
Some nations have waited over 20 years after applying to become accepted. Certain conditions must be met.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/nato-membership-requires-long-multi-step-process/2590397
@metal-brain saidYeah I’m pretty sure one of them is not being in an ongoing territorial dispute or pre-existing state of war for obvious reasons
Some nations have waited over 20 years after applying to become accepted. Certain conditions must be met.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/nato-membership-requires-long-multi-step-process/2590397