Originally posted by shavixmirDon't you get it shavixmir?
So...
I presume any enemy of the US is now thinking: "Hey...they're gonna use torture as a tool...we'd be foolish and unwise not to do like-wise."
If one wants to take the moral high ground, then one cannot tolerate such behaviour in one's own ranks.
There are millions of people out there, known as the bad guys, who are absolutely, incurably evil. They are all in communion with the Devil (known by various names, eg Allah, Osama bin Laden, Jacques Chirac), which is how they can coordinate their actions so well, and he's bound to have told them all the tricks of the trade already; nothing can make them more evil than they already are. Either the good, honest folk send every last one of the bad guys to Hell (oh, and stop them infecting others - bad-guyism is a contagious disease) or the whole world descends into darkness. I think the ends justify a bit of torture here and there - after all, terrorists' souls are already damned, so what does it matter if they suffer a little now before going to Hell?
You're not one of the bad guys yet... but you're not one of the good guys yet either. This is Armageddon, the final battle between good and evil, so sooner or later you WILL join one side or the other. So which is it to be?
Originally posted by AcolyteI will certainly not be joining the side of any capitalist.
Don't you get it shavixmir?
There are millions of people out there, known as the bad guys, who are absolutely, incurably evil. They are all in communion with the Devil (known by various names, eg Allah, Osama bin Laden, Jacques Chirac), which is how they can coordinate their actions so well, and he's bound to have told them all the tricks of the trade ...[text shortened]... en good and evil, so sooner or later you WILL join one side or the other. So which is it to be?
Originally posted by fjordSo why are'nt you preaching to the Arabs that are beheading innocent people? Thats OK right? I say in the waterboard torture they finish the job.
That is a philosophical way of looking at it. But there are two real problems.
Torture is an immoral and inhumane act. If the strongest country in our world will use it as an instrument to find the truth it sets a very bad example for the whole world.
And secondly, with torture you don't get the truth but the story you want to hear. So it can easily lead e.g. to a second WMD-spectacle that is based on sand.
Greetings
Fjord
Originally posted by StarValleyWyDo you really believe this? Because if you are prepared to do everything that your enemy is prepared to do, then there can be no moral separation between you. If your enemy is evil and facist - and you've said plenty of times that it is - then you will be precisely the same.
Sure. Whatever works against an enemy with no limits.
Seems reasonable.
Or you are a silly twit with no clue.
Think it through. "If I have an enemy who recognized no limits... what limits shall I recognize? And if I limit myself, what kind of fool am I?"
Bush claims this war is a moral crusade, designed to spread freedom and democracy around the world. If he is right then the US has an absolute duty to demonstrate that it has right on its side.
But maybe, as you say, this isn't a moral crusade. Maybe it's just another dirty, ugly, filthy war, with both sides prepared to stoop as low as they need to go.
You can't have it both ways. So choose. Which?
Rich.
Originally posted by WHY AYEWell, from a corrupt democracy will spring tyranny;
From democracy springs tyranny.
a true democracy will prevent it from happening.
I don't know if a true democracy is possible; it's
sort of like communism: it looks really good on
paper, but doesn't work in a practical sense.
Democracy's decline seems to be slower which
is what makes it appear more attractive than
communism in the short run. I'm not sure it
makes that much difference in the broader
context, though.
Nemesio
1 edit
Originally posted by AcolyteYou are correct, Acolyte. There will be another war started by the United Sates and as civilians in demoratic countires, we can influence our government when our troops are asked to fight as well.
Don't you get it shavixmir?
There are millions of people out there, known as the bad guys, who are absolutely, incurably evil. They are all in communion with the Devil (known by various names, eg Allah, Osama bin Laden, Jacques Chirac) ...[text shortened]... later you WILL join one side or the other. So which is it to be?
Acolyte´s apocalyptical views are typical of many of his countrymen - the enemy is evil, any actions are morally justified, and torture and mass murder can be necessary actions.
Think carefully what you will do when Bush starts his next war - particularly if you live in the UK or Australia.
Originally posted by AcolyteYou satanist you!
Don't you get it shavixmir?
There are millions of people out there, known as the bad guys, who are absolutely, incurably evil. They are all in communion with the Devil (known by various names, eg Allah, Osama bin Laden, Jacques Chirac), which is how they can coordinate their actions so well, and he's bound to have told them all the tricks of the trade ...[text shortened]... en good and evil, so sooner or later you WILL join one side or the other. So which is it to be?
Why?
Well Allah is another word for God(BTW, you guys shops at the same store, you just take different cars to get there), so equating him to the devil is pretty hectic.
3 edits
Originally posted by fjordthis extreme interrogation ...
From the NY Times, january 13,
"At the urging of the White House, Congressional leaders scrapped a legislative measure last month that would have imposed new restrictions on the use of extreme interrogation measures by American intelligen ...[text shortened]... nterrogation? Torture they mean.
Any comment?
Greetings
Fjord
does it apply to u.s. citizens?
or only to the non-u.s. humans?
this may seem like a minor quibble to some people, but in my mind this is at the heart of the ideal,
... it will be globally-good to torture in some very limited cases ... but there must be meaningfull feedback from the group amongst whom the victims are taken ... this is at the heart of the concept of democracy.
the determination of: which cases justify torture? is the issue.
should it be justified by superficial issues like:
race ... NO!
religion ... NO!
citizenship ..NO!
sexual preference ... NO!
justification of ease of administraion of torture on any of these types of grounds (and many others) is obviously the work of very bad/misguided people.
i hope the u.s. has not stooped that low,
if they have then i hope they can pick themselves up out of the gutter.
Originally posted by NemesioThe nightmare democracy would be one in which, for example, all minorities are persecuted without exception. People's conformist urges and fear of people who are different from them would see the majority support actions against individual minorities, who could easily be labelled in their minds as 'freaks' who need to be brought in line with the 'normal people'. But in fact, most of us are in some minority or other, so the majority of people would suffer directly under such a system, never mind the indirect suffering caused by the costs of enforcing discriminatory laws on such a large scale. All this takes is a population who are full of prejudices and are unable to see the wider consequences of the government's actions, whether it's a 'true democracy' or a one-person state.
Well, from a corrupt democracy will spring tyranny;
a true democracy will prevent it from happening.
I don't know if a true democracy is possible; it's
sort of like communism: it looks really good on
paper, but doesn't work in a practical sense.
Democracy's decline seems to be slower which
is what makes it appear more attractive than
communis ...[text shortened]... t run. I'm not sure it
makes that much difference in the broader
context, though.
Nemesio
The form government takes matters less than how well-informed people are. A populace which knows exactly what the government does, how, and why, can and does think clearly for itself, and is full of individuals who are strongly motivated to ensure a happy and prosperous society for themselves and their friends and family, will not tolerate any form of oppression, and such people will remain free as long as there are enough of them and they don't succumb to complacency and decadence. A populace which doesn't know about government, doesn't care, or makes no effort to think things through, instead following blind prejudice or 'authority figures' will happily turn even the freest of societies into a tyrannical one. The cynical apathy or even hostility of many Westerners towards both politics and education is something I find extremely worrying.