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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber huckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
    04 Sep '15 21:53
    I've recently had my social media feeds filled with the picture of the poor kid washed up on the Turkish beach. Although i think this is a profoundly sad event, and that something needs to be done about the crisis in Syria, what has annoyed me is the use of this child like a meme for a certain part of society to use against another. So, my debate question is this.

    Who is to blame for The babies being washed up on the beaches of Greece and Turkey?
  2. 04 Sep '15 22:00
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    I've recently had my social media feeds filled with the picture of the poor kid washed up on the Turkish beach. Although i think this is a profoundly sad event, and that something needs to be done about the crisis in Syria, what has annoyed me is the use of this child like a meme for a certain part of society to use against another. So, my debate qu ...[text shortened]... is this.

    Who is to blame for The babies being washed up on the beaches of Greece and Turkey?
    Planned Parenthood is outraged.

    They say that billions of dollars are going to waste in unharvested organs.
  3. Standard member vivify
    rain
    05 Sep '15 04:22
    ^ That's hilarious.
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Sep '15 08:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    I've recently had my social media feeds filled with the picture of the poor kid washed up on the Turkish beach. Although i think this is a profoundly sad event, and that something needs to be done about the crisis in Syria, what has annoyed me is the use of this child like a meme for a certain part of society to use against another. So, my debate qu ...[text shortened]... is this.

    Who is to blame for The babies being washed up on the beaches of Greece and Turkey?
    Who is to blame? You are using a well worn politician's device called "reframing the issue" which is used when people do not expect much sympathy for their opinions so shift the debate to different terrain in the hope of regaining an advantage. Why do you imagine that is the key question here? Are you a Cameron supporter by any chance? It is what he wants us to imagine.

    As the Syrian crisis unfolds many British people have been sickened by the cynical and inhumane response of the UK government and media. Similar concerns exist around Europe.

    Cameron's mantra has been that we must not help migrants, however desperate and however well they fit every legal definition of a refugee entitled to international help and support, because that will encourage more to follow them. The insanity of this response can be located in the delusion that people are fighting to get into our backyards, to take our jobs and our homes, rather than fleeing for their very lives to get away from fighting.

    This has been followed up with his pious pronouncement that instead of rescuing drowning and dying migrants, we must work for peace and security in the region - a generous phrasing which presumably encloses not only internal strife within Syria but post invasion Iraq, the aggressive Israeli state, the Sunni - Shia split of more than a thousand years, and perhaps the price of oil. It is so entirely delusory that it is plainly a sarcastic, dismissive and insulting position which the British electorate as a whole is not accepting any longer.

    Perhaps he envisages a policy for Syria like that for Israel. Enfold millions of refugees in some desert camp without prospects and leave them there, stateless and destitute for decades without prospect of improvement. If they protest at their treatment, maybe do what the Israelis do to Gaza and bomb them into passivity again. America will supply the weapons. It sure as hell will not be taking in the refugees.

    Something had to change and the images of three year old Aylan Kurdi served as a catalyst. As Stalin said, one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. Tyrants use that difference to their ends. We can use it in reverse against tyrants, by making the statistics human again. People can certainly be critical of the subsequent outpouring of sentiment in social media and question the political intelligence of much that has been said, they can raise their world weary eyebrows at the amatuer attempts to provide practical and financial help for example to the migrants trapped at Calais, but any politician ignoring the strength of feeling displayed is heading into trouble.

    We have been led for too long by politicians and other interests willing to disregard the common humanity we share with the people of Syria, Iraq, Palestine and the region generally. The image of Aylan is serving as a rallying point for those of us who are sickened by all that and want to see humane values given due weight in the policies of this country. And the image is working its magic like a crucifix held up to a vampire.

    That is how media works. Mock it if you wish from a vantage point of privilege and impunity. Ignore it at your peril.
  5. 05 Sep '15 08:40
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    Who is to blame for The babies being washed up on the beaches of Greece and Turkey?
    A lot of different people. Certainly the current discriminatory world order which restricts the movement of people and keeps some people out of the 'rich' areas must take a significant part of the blame.
    We can also blame the various people that have caused the migrants to want to move in the first place. We may blame the migrants themselves, but I think we should first have to find out whether their decision to move was reasonable or not. Perhaps the move was risky but good judgement on their part but they were unlucky.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Sep '15 09:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    A lot of different people. Certainly the current discriminatory world order which restricts the movement of people and keeps some people out of the 'rich' areas must take a significant part of the blame.
    We can also blame the various people that have caused the migrants to want to move in the first place. We may blame the migrants themselves, but I think ...[text shortened]... nable or not. Perhaps the move was risky but good judgement on their part but they were unlucky.
    Very much so. In the Ottoman Empire (and the earlier Byzantine Empire, and before that ...) there were no borders in this region and people moved freely, including a large proportion who were permanent or temporary migrants in various forms. The clever decision to draw lines around the oil and the sand and to call the newly invented "kingdoms" nation states was a masterpiece of Western imperialism. The further movement to impose religious and political conformity within each nation state, in a region accustomed to peaceful diversity over thousands of years, was a natural corollary of introducing Western thinking. Today even apartheid is practised with impunity by a Western backed colonial state in the administrative district known to the Ottomans as Palestine.
  7. 05 Sep '15 12:39
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    I've recently had my social media feeds filled with the picture of the poor kid washed up on the Turkish beach. Although i think this is a profoundly sad event, and that something needs to be done about the crisis in Syria, what has annoyed me is the use of this child like a meme for a certain part of society to use against another. So, my debate qu ...[text shortened]... is this.

    Who is to blame for The babies being washed up on the beaches of Greece and Turkey?
    "Who is to blame..."

    There is something deeply flawed about the concept of life, and yet it is what motivates and gives vitality to life. It is the fact that it invariably ends. Various forms of denial are practiced, including the form called scapegoating. Even if a malefactor is correctly identified, that person is motivated by some real or perceived threat to his existence. Better to ease the suffering of those next to us, than to pursue justice so far away. but both are better than armchair quarterbacking. . Make a difference where you can.
  8. 05 Sep '15 16:53
    Originally posted by JS357
    "Who is to blame..."

    There is something deeply flawed about the concept of life, and yet it is what motivates and gives vitality to life. It is the fact that it invariably ends. Various forms of denial are practiced, including the form called scapegoating. Even if a malefactor is correctly identified, that person is motivated by some real or perceived thre ...[text shortened]... o far away. but both are better than armchair quarterbacking. . Make a difference where you can.
    Who is to blame? The person who was supposed to be watching the kid and is responsible for the kid.

    If you want to blame someone for instability in Africa, look to Hilary and the Obama administration.
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Sep '15 18:38
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Who is to blame? The person who was supposed to be watching the kid and is responsible for the kid.

    If you want to blame someone for instability in Africa, look to Hilary and the Obama administration.
    When did Syria join Africa?

    Will you be supporting Trump for president?
  10. 05 Sep '15 19:14
    Originally posted by finnegan
    When did Syria join Africa?

    Will you be supporting Trump for president?
    Only the politically correct establishment puts Syria outside of Africa.
  11. 05 Sep '15 19:21
    Originally posted by finnegan
    When did Syria join Africa?

    Will you be supporting Trump for president?
    It is all part of the Arab Spring.

    AKA Islamist/terrorist spring in the Islamic world.
  12. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Sep '15 19:49
    Originally posted by Eladar
    It is all part of the Arab Spring.

    AKA Islamist/terrorist spring in the Islamic world.
    When did Syria join Africa?
  13. 05 Sep '15 20:39
    Originally posted by finnegan
    When did Syria join Africa?
    I already explain what I meant.

    You can turn a blind eye to the mess Hilary and Obama made of the Islamic world if you like.
  14. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    05 Sep '15 20:43
    Originally posted by huckleberryhound
    I've recently had my social media feeds filled with the picture of the poor kid washed up on the Turkish beach. Although i think this is a profoundly sad event, and that something needs to be done about the crisis in Syria, what has annoyed me is the use of this child like a meme for a certain part of society to use against another. So, my debate qu ...[text shortened]... is this.

    Who is to blame for The babies being washed up on the beaches of Greece and Turkey?
    Obama.
  15. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Sep '15 22:06
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I already explain what I meant.

    You can turn a blind eye to the mess Hilary and Obama made of the Islamic world if you like.
    Yes, my track record of ignoring the USA contribution to disorder in the region is well established by now. I need to remember that Obama is responsible for the determination of President Wilson in 1918 Versailles to impose on the region nation states for which there was not and never had been a historical or rational justification and Obama must also be called to account for the 1953 coup that overthrew a democratically elected secular government in Iran. Obama, elected in 2008, obviously was the one who invaded Iraq in 2003 and proceeded to promote sectarian divisions while providing the facilities for an Islamist university in the American prison camps from which ISIS emerged.

    Indeed, this is all about American domestic party politics and a vote for the Republicans is our best hope for the peace and security in the Middle East that David Cameron likes to talk about when asked to do something useful and for which you nice American taxpayers pay billions in military subsidies every year to Israel, Egypt and a few more of your salubrious friends over there. American military adventures are just fine as long as they are led by Republicans.