Debates
02 Apr 07
02 Apr 07
So...
If the British sailors were trespassing and knew it, then their public statements are correct, and the British government is wrong for refusing to apologize.
But if the British sailors weren't trespassing but say they were, they are liars. Oh, but they are being coerced.
But if British military personnel can be coerced that easily without any sign of physicial discomfort, doesn't that make them complete wimps?
I just don't see any incentive for Iran not to do this over and over again. No matter what, Britain looks bad, and no consequences for Iran.
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by spruce112358So if I can torture you without leaving any physical marks for the camera, that makes you a big girl's blouse, does it?
But if British military personnel can be coerced that easily without any sign of physicial discomfort, doesn't that make them complete wimps?
These sailors were most likely briefed beforehand that they could say whatever the hell they liked to get home - they're not special ops, these rules of engagement are generally known, and as it turns out, the crude use of propaganda (you'd think they'd be better at this after 27 years) has turned opinion against them in what is admittedly an ambiguous case.
02 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by spruce112358One way they've coerced "confessions" in the past has been by having one shipmate off camera with a gun to his head.
So...
If the British sailors were trespassing and knew it, then their public statements are correct, and the British government is wrong for refusing to apologize.
But if the British sailors weren't trespassing but say they were, they are liars. Oh, but they are being coerced.
But if British military personnel can be coerced that easily without do this over and over again. No matter what, Britain looks bad, and no consequences for Iran.
If you're alone, you might resist for awhile, but with a mates life in your hands, most of us would say whatever asked of us .. regardless. On top of that, they should be coached before hand that they can say just about anything. None of these lowly seamen will hold any State or military secrets to give up.
Have they shown ALL the captured servicemen on camera?
Could be that some of them are being tortured as I type, while there mates are being put in front of TV lights and "questioned."
The "complete wimps" you speak of are the ones who sent these guys out naked .. and deserted them.
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by AmauroteI think you're right. From the people I have talked to, its common for soldiers to be told to do whatever it takes to make it home. Which means, give your captors no reason to kill you. If these soldiers are usefull for domestic propaganda, then they have a great chance of staying alive. Plus, a TV appearance might give someone an idea of where you are.
So if I can torture you without leaving any physical marks for the camera, that makes you a big girl's blouse, does it?
These sailors were most likely briefed beforehand that they could say whatever the hell they liked to get home - they're not special ops, these rules of engagement are generally known, and as it turns out, the crude use of propaganda (y ...[text shortened]... his after 27 years) has turned opinion against them in what is admittedly an ambiguous case.
Also, I've been told that if you can do something to make them look bad without risking your life (not blatant) its a bonus. Slurred speech, etc. One of the sailors had said they were captured here (pointing to a spot on a map) "from what they've told us" or something to that effect. I don't remember the quote. It sounds to me like these sailors have taken their training very well. They deserve a heroes welcome when they get home.
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by MerkOK, so with the point about "saying whatever is necessary to get home" well established...
I think you're right. From the people I have talked to, its common for soldiers to be told to do whatever it takes to make it home. Which means, give your captors no reason to kill you. If these soldiers are usefull for domestic propaganda, then they have a great chance of staying alive. Plus, a TV appearance might give someone an idea of where you are.
Al ...[text shortened]... ors have taken their training very well. They deserve a heroes welcome when they get home.
What should the detainees in Guantanamo be saying in order to "get home"?
02 Apr 07
Originally posted by spruce112358I have no idea. As I've said in another thread, my government should have processed those men long ago.
OK, so with the point about "saying whatever is necessary to get home" well established...
What should the detainees in Guantanamo be saying in order to "get home"?
03 Apr 07
Originally posted by spruce112358It seems, wussy, that you've NEVER been hit by a bunch of thugs-with-badge on your torax and back, covered by a wet towel, which avoids marks... neither you've ever been electroshocked in your apparently small nuts (comapred with your BIG mouth).
So...
If the British sailors were trespassing and knew it, then their public statements are correct, and the British government is wrong for refusing to apologize.
But if the British sailors weren't trespassing but say they were, they are liars. Oh, but they are being coerced.
But if British military personnel can be coerced that easily without ...[text shortened]... do this over and over again. No matter what, Britain looks bad, and no consequences for Iran.
You should go to a Latin American country and suffer in flesh the repression from the police force, highly trained in making you feel pain without leaving external marks.
I've seen it with my own eyes when I was working as a student with the local human rights commission in a place of Mexico I don't even want to remember.
I'm not even debating about this sailors issue, nor making any statement about the situation... I simply wanted to point out that your throat is connected to your intestine, ergo, you speak crap.
03 Apr 07
1 edit
Yeah, keep trying to do the funny thing. You know you said a stupidity.
I hope one day you suffer in flesh torture so you know what it feels like and stop saying nonsense.
I don't like you.
Edit. Well, I don't honestly wish it... I don't wish pain to anybody, really. But you get the point.
03 Apr 07
Originally posted by SeitseWell, I don't always agree with you, Seitse, but at least you are sincere.
Yeah, keep trying to do the funny thing. You know you said a stupidity.
I hope one day you suffer in flesh torture so you know what it feels like and stop saying nonsense.
I don't like you.
I was raising a debate about politics, perception and propaganda in this thread. I don't think the British sailors have been tortured at all, although they may have been mislead by Iranian Intelligence.
The reality of true torture is that it is abhorrent and degrades both the victim and the tormenter. I am against it being used anywhere -- against soldiers, civilians, OR terrorists.
03 Apr 07
Originally posted by spruce112358Its a sad state of affiars, but every country does torture people in the "name of the state".
Well, I don't always agree with you, Seitse, but at least you are sincere.
I was raising a debate about politics, perception and propaganda in this thread. I don't think the British sailors have been tortured at all, although they may have been mislead by Iranian Intelligence.
The reality of true torture is that it is abhorrent and degrades both t ...[text shortened]... tormenter. I am against it being used anywhere -- against soldiers, civilians, OR terrorists.
Wheather its directly in the country such as above or being sent to another location such as the USA sending people via UK to Egypt for example, I perosnally think this will always happen and their is nothing that we can really do about it
Not much comfort for the victims....
03 Apr 07
Originally posted by spruce112358Not debating this issue here.
Well, I don't always agree with you, Seitse, but at least you are sincere.
I was raising a debate about politics, perception and propaganda in this thread. I don't think the British sailors have been tortured at all, although they may have been mislead by Iranian Intelligence.
The reality of true torture is that it is abhorrent and degrades both t ...[text shortened]... tormenter. I am against it being used anywhere -- against soldiers, civilians, OR terrorists.
Just got uncomfortable for that "coerced that easily without any sign of physicial discomfort" thing.
My worst memories are from seeing and talking to tortured people... many of them without a single, visible trace.