Originally posted by no1marauderI never claimed to support laws against abortion you make the assumtion that I am talking about laws. I am talking about morality. I am saying you are not telling the truth when you tell a woman abortion is moraly ok. I am also saying you are being inconsistent when you legalise abortion but not murder.
I'm curious how someone can declare himself an anarchist i.e. against government and laws but support criminal laws against abortion.
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardAnd yet you say facts cannot determine whether abortion is right or wrong.
I am saying you are not telling the truth when you tell a woman abortion is moraly ok.
"Abortion is wrong".
Is that a fact, and if not, what is it? What is a fact?
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardThis just goes back to the old point, and really the only point of disagreement among the pro-life and the pro-choice. Pro-lifers claim the fetus is a life, pro-choice folks do not. Some pro-lifers even claim there's life the moment sperm meets egg. Being pro-choice, I do not.
What someone else does with someone else's body is that your business?
So again, from my point of view, what a woman does with her body is her business.
1 edit
Originally posted by dottewellAnd yet you say facts cannot determine whether abortion is right or wrong.
And yet you say facts cannot determine whether abortion is right or wrong.
"Abortion is wrong".
Is that a fact, and if not, what is it? What is a fact?
Yes so if I say abortion is right I am not telling the truth. And when I say abortion is wrong I am also not telling the truth.
"Abortion is wrong".
Is that a fact, and if not, what is it? What is a fact?
This is not a fact because I have no prove to support my claim and neither is there proof to support the opposite.
*Fact: a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"
Originally posted by wibThe zygote is a living parasite. This is not a belief but a fact.
This just goes back to the old point, and really the only point of disagreement among the pro-life and the pro-choice. Pro-lifers claim the fetus is a life, pro-choice folks do not. Some pro-lifers even claim there's life the moment sperm meets egg. Being pro-choice, I do not.
So again, from my point of view, what a woman does with her body is her business.
Originally posted by no1marauderno1maruader:
Perhaps the whole thread is based on a premise our right-wing and anti-abortion friends don't share. Maybe they don't believe that ANYONE has a right to self-autonomy; thus the State can legitimately ban whatever behavior they please with enforceable criminal penalties. If this is their position it would explain why none of them had anything to say in ...[text shortened]... o express the view that the Framers were wrong and no one has any "inalienable" rights at all?
Thats an intersting premise but it is not true from my viewpoint.
First yes I am anti-abortion in most cases.
Someone earlier used the example that if BosseDeNage was plugged into my internal organs such that he couldn't survive if ripped out. I believe you that I have no compulsion to keep him there as this is due to my self-autonomy..
On the other hand if I partake in an exciting and fun activity in which there is the chance that BosseDeNage may end up in the state described above, then I must support him until he can survive on his own. It was a known risk that I took.
Disclamers/Spell it out for those who don't like metaphors:
1. I am not female.
2. Replace BosseDeNage with baby/fetus and I with a woman. you have
have my viewpoint.
3. Yes the top example refers to rape, but if it's not rape then you must bring the baby safely into this world.
Originally posted by wibAs much as you would like to think otherwise, that is not a fact.
So far I also have only found one fact regarding abortion.
Fact #1: What someone else does with their body is none of my damn business. 😉
Obvious example: If I punch someone, what I have done with my body does concern others and they should take steps to punish me.
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardI'm not interested in an abstract moral discussion; that's in the Spirituality Forum. Your last sentence makes the rest of the your post unclear: since there are obviously going to be laws against murder as it is the ultimate violation of a person's right to self-autonomy, do you support criminal laws against abortion or not? Please give a direct answer.
I never claimed to support laws against abortion you make the assumtion that I am talking about laws. I am talking about morality. I am saying you are not telling the truth when you tell a woman abortion is moraly ok. I am also saying you are being inconsistent when you legalise abortion but not murder.
Originally posted by zebanoYour hand is solely contained within your body and you can do with it what you want; there body is not contained within your body so you cannot punch it without violating their self-autonomy. Simple.
As much as you would like to think otherwise, that is not a fact.
Obvious example: If I punch someone, what I have done with my body does concern others and they should take steps to punish me.
Your suggestion that your views of sexual mores is relevant to this discussion are absurd. That's certainly a part of the right of self-autonomy, too. You'll have to give some reason why a woman can't do with things inside her own body what she pleases without her right to self-autonomy being violated; you haven't yet. You do believe that she has a fundamental right to self-autonomy, don't you?
1 edit
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardSo it is an innate belief that is neither true nor not true? Not knowledge, I guess, and something you say there is no evidence for & which cannot be shown or assumed.
[b]And yet you say facts cannot determine whether abortion is right or wrong.
Yes so if I say abortion is right I am not telling the truth. And when I say abortion is wrong I am also not telling the truth.
"Abortion is wrong".
Is that a fact, and if not, what is it? What is a fact?
This is not a fact because I have no prove t ...[text shortened]... e opposite.
*Fact: a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"[/b]
Surely your rational mind tells you such a belief is worthless. Yet that you feel it is important and needs to be shared. Why?
Do you think there are standards of proof that turn a hypothesis into a fact? Is gravity a fact or a hypothesis?