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  1. Zugzwang
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    30 Apr '16 23:46
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves

    Women on Waves (WoW) is a non-profit Dutch organization whose mission is to
    bring reproductive health services to women in societies with anti-choice abortion laws.
    An abortion may be performed aboard a WoW ship in international waters (where Dutch law is in effect).

    Recently, Women on Waves has been in the news for attempting to use drones
    to carry abortion pills from Germany into Poland. The WoW website
    advises women around the world on how to obtain a safe abortion.

    http://womenonwaves.org/
  2. The Catbird's Seat
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    01 May '16 12:04
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves

    Women on Waves (WoW) is a non-profit Dutch organization whose mission is to
    bring reproductive health services to women in societies with anti-choice abortion laws.
    An abortion may be performed aboard a WoW ship in international waters (where Dutch law is in effect).

    Recently, Women on Waves has been in ...[text shortened]... te
    advises women around the world on how to obtain a safe abortion.

    http://womenonwaves.org/
    Why are so many women fixated on killing babies? If reproduction isn't desired, there are lots of methods of contraception.
  3. Standard memberSleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
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    01 May '16 12:19
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Why are so many women fixated on killing babies? If reproduction isn't desired, there are lots of methods of contraception.
    Not just women, but leftists everywhere. Killing that inconvenient baby is the ultimate shirking of personal responsibility to which they aspire. Calling such butchery a "reproductive health" service is Orwellian in the extreme.
  4. Joined
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    01 May '16 12:281 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_on_Waves

    Women on Waves (WoW) is a non-profit Dutch organization whose mission is to
    bring reproductive health services to women in societies with anti-choice abortion laws.
    An abortion may be performed aboard a WoW ship in international waters (where Dutch law is in effect).

    Recently, Women on Waves has been in ...[text shortened]... te
    advises women around the world on how to obtain a safe abortion.

    http://womenonwaves.org/
    I used to know a woman that had a "W" tattooed on each bum cheek and when she bent down it read... " WoW "🙂
  5. Germany
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    01 May '16 13:12
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Why are so many women fixated on killing babies? If reproduction isn't desired, there are lots of methods of contraception.
    Why are so many people fixated on treating injuries from car accidents? If getting involved in a car accident isn't desired, there are lots of methods of not driving.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    01 May '16 14:36
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Why are so many women fixated on killing babies? If reproduction isn't desired, there are lots of methods of contraception.
    They're not.
    They're fixated on allowing women to decide what they want to do with their own bodies.
  7. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    01 May '16 17:28
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Why are so many people fixated on treating injuries from car accidents? If getting involved in a car accident isn't desired, there are lots of methods of not driving.
    They're not.

    You don't see organizations running around the world violating local laws to treat car accident victims. You see it with abortion because it makes a political statement and you know it.

    If reproductive health were really the agenda, they'd get a hell of a lot more bang for their buck educating people on how to avoid unwanted pregnancies. Putting a Gdasnk woman on a ship and sailing out into the Baltic in order to suck the baby out of her costs a heck of a lot more and is a lot more risky than educating her to avoid the pregnancy in the first place.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm not in favor of making early term abortion illegal. But this is more about politics and embarrassing countries that limit abortion rights than it is truly about reproductive health.
  8. Germany
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    01 May '16 18:38
    Originally posted by sh76
    They're not.

    You don't see organizations running around the world violating local laws to treat car accident victims. You see it with abortion because it makes a political statement and you know it.

    If reproductive health were really the agenda, they'd get a hell of a lot more bang for their buck educating people on how to avoid unwanted pregnancies. Put ...[text shortened]... nd embarrassing countries that limit abortion rights than it is truly about reproductive health.
    I never said I agreed with the methods of Women on Waves (I don't), I was just responding to normbenign's idiotic comment.
  9. Zugzwang
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    01 May '16 19:453 edits
    Originally posted by sh76 to KazetNagorra
    They're not.

    You don't see organizations running around the world violating local laws to treat car accident victims. You see it with abortion because it makes a political statement and you know it.

    If reproductive health were really the agenda, they'd get a hell of a lot more bang for their buck educating people on how to avoid unwanted ...[text shortened]... nd embarrassing countries that limit abortion rights than it is truly about reproductive health.
    "...violating local laws..."
    --Sh76

    'Violating' is false. Does Sh76 believe it's illegal to perform an abortion aboard a Dutch ship in international waters?
    It would be fair to say that Women on Waves may aim to *circumvent* local laws.
    The moral argument is that women have a universal basic human right to choose an
    abortion, at least of a pre-viable fetus, and WoW acts to make that human right meaningful.

    By the way, I have heard Western men strongly encourage women in some Islamic societies
    to 'violate local laws' on female dress codes. Most women would regard being forced
    to continue their unwanted pregnancy until they give birth as a more life-changing
    violation of their human rights than being compelled to keep their hair covered in public.

    "You don't see organizations running around the world ... to treat car accident victims."
    --Sh76

    Orbis International is a NGO that operates a 'flying eye hospital' (aboard a DC-10) , which
    travels around the world, offering (free) operations to save or restore eyesight to poor
    people in developing countries. Would Sh76 object to Orbis's 'political statement'?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbis_International

    Has Sh76 heard of the 'coat hanger' protest against anti-choice abortion laws in Poland?
    http:/www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/06/poland-s-coat-hanger-rebellion-against-a-new-anti-abortion-law.html

    "Poland's Coat Hanger Rebellion Against a New Anti-Abortion Law"

    So Sh76 apparently believes it's wrong to 'embarrass' Poland about its draconian anti-choice abortion laws.
    Many women and even men *in Poland* disagree with Sh76 and believe that Poland's government should be embarrassed.

    Here's a commentary by a Polish woman:
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/08/polish-abortion-ban-law-poland

    "A Polish Abortion Ban Would Turn Women Back Into Child-Bearing Instruments"
    --Zofia Reych (8 April 2016)

    Contrary to what Sh76 may assume, many Polish women *already* have been leaving
    Poland (such as to Slovakia) in order to have abortions (which typically are expensive).
    Should a poor woman have the same opportunity as a rich woman to exercise her reproductive choice?

    I already am aware that some sexist men here would prefer that women be kept in their
    'natural place' as 'child-bearing instruments', subordinate to men.
  10. Zugzwang
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    01 May '16 20:001 edit
    An American feminist expresses her support for Women on Waves.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/29/prevent-all-abortions-eliminate-safe-abortions

    "No one can prevent all abortions. You can only eliminate safe abortions."
    --Jessica Valenti (29 October 2014)

    "Are they (Women on Waves) going to have to sail to America too?"
    --Jessica Valenti

    If we accept that the right to choose an abortion is a universal basic human right, then
    Women on Waves's work may be taken as furthering a campaign of civil disobedience.
    Women on Waves aims to educate women on how to obtain safe abortions.

    The 2014 documentary film 'Vessel' covers WoW's leader, Dr Rebecca Gomperts.
  11. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    01 May '16 20:14
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...violating local laws..."
    --Sh76

    'Violating' is false. Does Sh76 believe it's illegal to perform an abortion aboard a Dutch ship in international waters?
    It would be fair to say that Women on Waves may aim to *circumvent* local laws.
    The moral argument is that women have a universal basic human right to choose an
    abortion, at least of a pre-viab ...[text shortened]... that women be kept in their
    'natural place' as 'child-bearing instruments', subordinate to men.
    === So Sh76 apparently believes it's wrong to 'embarrass' Poland about its draconian anti-choice abortion laws. ===

    On the contrary, I don't believe any such thing. Advocating a political position is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. If the position is morally right, then advocating the position, perforce, is morally right and vice versa. Abortion is an extremely complex topic and I don't blame people who advocate either position.

    Your post reinforces my perception that WoW is more about politics than health.
  12. Zugzwang
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    01 May '16 20:181 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    === So Sh76 apparently believes it's wrong to 'embarrass' Poland about its draconian anti-choice abortion laws. ===

    On the contrary, I don't believe any such thing. Advocating a political position is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. If the position is morally right, then advocating the position, perforce, is morally right and vice versa. Abort ...[text shortened]... er position.

    Your post reinforces my perception that WoW is more about politics than health.
    "...my perception that WoW is more about politics than health."
    --Sh76

    The women who have obtained safe abortions with WoW's help would disagree with Sh76.
    And the women who appeal to WoW to help them get safe abortions would disagree with Sh76.
    These women care about their own health more than about making any political statement.
  13. Joined
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    01 May '16 20:32
    Classifying abortions as women's health is by definition political.
  14. Zugzwang
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    01 May '16 20:401 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Classifying abortions as women's health is by definition political.
    When women die after having illegal abortions, does Eladar regard their deaths as
    only 'political' and unrelated to women's health?
  15. Joined
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    01 May '16 21:00
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    When women die after having illegal abortions, does Eladar regard their deaths as
    only 'political' and unrelated to women's health?
    As I said.

    Someone dies in every abortion. In the abortion you describe two people die.
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