Originally posted by FMFAlthough I am more and more beginning to see this event is very likely yet another false flag or hoax, working from the assumption it actually happened...
What you have is a mentally ill, alcohol-abusing, wife-beating violent, non-religious, nominal Muslim American from New York pumped up on some ideology and armed to the teeth who has flipped and murdered 50 people. And yet the analysis is [1] "Muslims are forsworn to kill all homosexuals".
Presumably,[b] if he hadn't been a Muslim then the analysis woul ...[text shortened]... 's as if 'Muslims-are-forsworn-blah-blah' analysis is in some way more ideologically convenient.[/b]
The shooter sold his house to his ex-wife in April for $10--- real bad guy who must have been trying to make amends for all that previous beating, to be sure.
Nonetheless, he reportedly claimed to be operating as an agent of ISIS, and they reportedly claimed responsibility for the attack.
By most recent tallies, to get into the ISIS club, being a Muslim is kind of a must.
Again, that's assuming the thing even happened.
Originally quoted by FreakyKBHPublic discussion of homosexuality in Indonesia has been inhibited in the past and to a degree still is, and for many many people here "human sexuality in any form is rarely discussed or depicted openly" it's true. But there is public discussion nevertheless and growing voices in support of the human rights of homosexuals.
"Public discussion of homosexuality in Indonesia has been inhibited by the fact that human sexuality in any form is rarely discussed or depicted openly."[/i]
"In recent years, LGBT people in Indonesia are facing growing hostility and intolerance."
Yes, one could say that LGBT people in Indonesia are facing growing hostility and intolerance ~ much of it in social media - but this is a reactionary push back against change.
Like I said, there are gay bars and clubs in Indonesia. There are countless openly gay people, especially in cities. There are openly gay people on TV. Civil society organizations and non-governmental organizations advocating for change. It is so wonder that this trend is met with hostility and intolerance in some quarters.
But you're still not getting to my question which was - and I'll repeat it because it really would be interesting to hear you address it - If they are so forsworn, as you claim, and with guns relatively easy to obtain here in Indonesia (the world's biggest Muslim majority nation) for those who are motivated to lay hands on them, why do you think there have been no mass shootings of homosexuals here?
Originally posted by FMFWhy are you asking me?
Public discussion of homosexuality in Indonesia has been inhibited in the past and to a degree still is, and for many many people here "human sexuality in any form is rarely discussed or depicted openly" it's true. But there is public discussion nevertheless and growing voices in support of the human rights of homosexuals.
Yes, one could say that LGBT people ...[text shortened]... ed to lay hands on them, why do you think there have been no mass shootings of homosexuals here?
How about, instead, you take a jaunt out to Aceh and ask anyone of the city's leaders how such toleration can be reconciled with the teachings of the Religion of Peace.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI made no such generalized claim about "Muslim communities [being] 'down with it'", as you well know. Nor am I talking about "the testimony of just a few gay folks", as I am pretty sure you already realize. And, yes, there isn't much progress going on on these issues in Aceh, to put it mildly. But you still are not answering my question about your claim that "Muslims are forsworn to kill all homosexuals".
While the larger cities are less strident, to claim the Muslim communities are 'down with it' is beyond an extreme exaggeration.
From the testimony of just a few gay folks, society is tolerant--- just don't tell anyone about it, and everything will be fine.
With only Aceh under Sharia law, it's kind of difficult to make a case that Muslim Indonesia looks anything like, say for instance, Muslim Iran.
Originally posted by FMFOnce you get an answer to your question from any one of the imam there in Aceh, perhaps you'd like to explain why you think it's appropriate to incite other posters to tackle me.
I made no such generalized claim about "Muslim communities [being] 'down with it'", as you well know. Nor am I talking about "the testimony of just a few gay folks", as I am pretty sure you already realize. And, yes, there isn't much progress going on on these issues in Aceh, to put it mildly. But you still are not answering my question about your claim that "Muslims are forsworn to kill all homosexuals".
Have I done something to invite your continued threats of physical threats?
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYes, I've been to Aceh several times. And there hasn't been much progress there on issues related to discrimination against or repression of homosexuals there. But picking one Province of Indonesia is surely just a red herring. You're still not addressing the question about the claim you made.
How about, instead, you take a jaunt out to Aceh and ask anyone of the city's leaders how such toleration can be reconciled with the teachings of the Religion of Peace.
Originally posted by FMFIf I am wrong about the Religion of Peace, perhaps you can show me from their religious writings how homosexuality's a tolerable thing for their society.
Because it was you who claimed that Muslims are forsworn to kill all homosexuals and from the way you are posting I think you realize that you are wrong.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYour claim about the murders that Muslims are "forsworn" to carry out is untrue. And yet you deliberately entered it into this discussion.
Once you get an answer to your question from any one of the imam there in Aceh, perhaps you'd like to explain why you think it's appropriate to incite other posters to tackle me.
Have I done something to invite your continued threats of physical threats?
Originally posted by FMFAre you daft?
Yes, I've been to Aceh several times. And there hasn't been much progress there on issues related to discrimination against or repression of homosexuals there. But picking one Province of Indonesia is surely just a red herring. You're still not addressing the question about the claim you made.
It's the one city in Indonesia which is under Sharia law.
It is the one city which can claim is actually the model of Muslim life.
The rest of them are Jack Muslims.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHNo, it is you who has to substantiate the claim that you made about there being some onus on Muslims to murder people. It's your claim. You back it up if you can.
If I am wrong about the Religion of Peace, perhaps you can show me from their religious writings how homosexuality's a tolerable thing for their society.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHSo you share the same view of Islamic theology as the hardliners and extremists in one of Indonesia's most conservative provinces (and scattered around all over the country)?
It's the one city in Indonesia which is under Sharia law.
It is the one city which can claim is actually the model of Muslim life.
The rest of them are Jack Muslims.
What Muslims are and what they do is surely established by what they are and what they do. Muslim life is modelled by the way Muslims live. Where are they permitting themselves, by the laws they themselves enact, to "kill all homosexuals"?
And yet you choose to find the most intransigent and reactionary faction and dismiss the millions upon millions of others - that doesn't seem like a stance to take that has too much integrity, or maybe you think it does?
Originally posted by FMFMy answer is found in reading the newspaper or watching the news.
No, it is you who has to substantiate the claim that you made about there being some onus on Muslims to murder people. It's your claim. You back it up if you can.
There aren't many people who do either or both who aren't aware that the overwhelming majority of Muslim -dominated countries or societies are strictly against homosexuality.
Do I need to support their requirements for women's wear, too, or are you okay with that assertion?
Good God: it's almost as though you believe the crap you put on here.