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Originally posted by sally cinnamonBut the success and power of Liverpool at this time makes Clough's achievements even more impressive. He is without doubt the greatest English manager, even if others could challenge him as greatest manager of an English team.
Bob Paisley.If greatness is judged by success then he is head and shoulders above anyone
Andrew
Originally posted by latex bishopHow can you dismiss Alex Ferguson's achievements with Aberdeen (2 leagues, 3 Scottish Cups and European Cup Winners Cup), and his part in rejuvenating the sleeping giant that was Manchester United?
But the success and power of Liverpool at this time makes Clough's achievements even more impressive. He is without doubt the greatest English manager, even if others could challenge him as greatest manager of an English team.
Andrew
D
Originally posted by Ragnorak"English" manager?
How can you dismiss Alex Ferguson's achievements with Aberdeen (2 leagues, 3 Scottish Cups and European Cup Winners Cup), and his part in rejuvenating the sleeping giant that was Manchester United?
D
Giants are more easily woken when you have plenty of cash to splash, but I do agree that adding on Fergie's achievements at Aberdeen make his record look extremely good.
Originally posted by mtthwUmm, missed the English bit.
"English" manager?
Giants are more easily woken when you have plenty of cash to splash, but I do agree that adding on Fergie's achievements at Aberdeen make his record look extremely good.
I don't think Ferguson seriously splashed the cash in his early days.
1986 1.615m gain.
1987 1.465m loss
1988 2.44m loss
1989 6.75m loss
1990 0.57m loss
1991 2.9m loss
1992 0.215m loss
bringing him up to the first Premiership win. I think you do a great disservice to the man's involvement in the Manchester United youth program setup, which has provided priceless talent over the past 10-15 years... Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, the Nevilles, Wes Brown, Nicky Butt.
D
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I don't dismiss him at all, you could argue that Ferguson achieved more at Aberdeen than Man U if you look at what he had to work with.
As I said, there are a number of candidates for best manager of an English team, but Clough is in my opinion the best English manager. I would also tend to go down the Paisley route rather than Ferguson route for most successful. When I was a kid there was just Liverpool, no one else seemed to get a look in and I am not sure Man U have reached the total domination that Liverpool achieved particually in Europe.
That aside, you can not understimate in anyway what Clough achieved in those to Euro Cups, let alone the championship in the same league with two different clubs. I suppose it would be like a team such as Reading wining the premiership, and then two years of winning the Champions League after that. Thats three years of being at the top of Euro football with a giant such as Liverpool in the same league.
If Clough had resiged after the second Euro Cup he would be the definative greatest rather than a bloke who stayed too long and degenerated in the public eye.
Andrew
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Originally posted by RagnorakI agree with you on this, Hansen was not too far off the mark with his famous quote, the difference was Ferguson developing those players at the right pace and blending them with experienced players. The skill of this is probably more highlighted with the job that Roder managed to do with a similar talent pool at West Ham. Ferguson won the league, Roder got us relegated.
I think you do a great disservice to the man's involvement in the Manchester United youth program setup, which has provided priceless talent over the past 10-15 years... Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, the Nevilles, Wes Brown, Nicky Butt.
D
Andrew
Originally posted by latex bishopIt was noticeable that the year of Hansen's quote was probably Cantona's most influential at Man Utd - there's no way they'd have won it that year without him.
I agree with you on this, Hansen was not too far off the mark with his famous quote, the difference was Ferguson developing those players at the right pace and blending them with experienced players. The skill of this is probably more highlighted with the job that Roder managed to do with a similar talent pool at West Ham. Ferguson won the league, Roder got us relegated.
Andrew
But there's another point about the cash - it's not just a matter of buying players. Very few clubs would be able to hang on to players like that even if they managed to develop them.
Originally posted by latex bishopCloughie's last season was a nightmare I agree, but you could see in the post mach interview how upset he was.
If Clough had resiged after the second Euro Cup he would be the definative greatest rather than a bloke who stayed too long and degenerated in the public eye.
Andrew[/b]
Every football fan in England felt for him that day.
I was there, we beat Forest 2-0 to send them down but the Blades fans chanted his name throughout the game (he even mentions this in his autobiography)...
Despite what happened in his latter days, he's still the greatest.
Paisley was great at Anfield but it was Matt Busby that taught him his trade.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Busby#Managerial_stats
"Soon after Bob Paisley joined Liverpool from Bishop Auckland and it was Busby who took him under his wing and showed him the ropes at Anfield. This led to a lifelong friendship between two of the most successful managers in English football history."
Busby built a young team from scratch won game after game with them until they were almost wiped out in a plane crash..then he rebuilt again.
Young people today can scoff all they like the likes of Busby and Alf Ramsey (only Brit to bring the big one home) are the true greats with
Paisley & Ferguson up there.
The Clough story is amazing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Clough#Management_career
but leaves doubts..
Greatness is about a combination of ability, courage and humilty. Sadly the mouth and the alcohol let him down.
Also you have to ask about Clough doing so well when he was partnered with Peter Taylor but not so well without.. perhaps I put too much on this.. I'm not sure.