Originally posted by blade68I completely disagree with you.
Spot on.
The pressure is on now.
I wold rather play the final leg at home 0-0, than the final game away 0-0.
The bookmakers also agree and make United favourates.
United have won their last 11 home CL games and are unbeaten in the league at home.
Originally posted by Rooney Once a BlueYou're wrong if you think we can put out an attacking line up every game and we'll dominate games-----rooney
I completely agree with you that United have lost momentum, fluency and confidence.
I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.
United have had the following problems recently:-
- Our defense has suffered from injuries and a different back 4 every game
- We have had some very difficult games Roma(2), Liverpool, Arsenal, Bo ...[text shortened]... helsea.
BTW, there's no guarantee Chelsea will beat Newcastle away.
Come on United.
I see no reason why we should not dominate many games and hold our own in others.
Your philosophy is based on an illusion of risk versus caution (no risk). Both my suggested tactics and yours have risks attached to them. Defending deep and conceding possession has it's own risks as balls are frequently played into your box and you have few chances to score. It's also risky to try and score an away goal or try to win at the bridge. Risk in football is unavoidable , the choice is which kind of risk is best suited to your team and the situation. The idea that there is a choice between a risky approach and a cautious approach is false. The choice is between a passive approach and a pro-active approach. Both have risks , both have good points and bad points but one of them suits our players and one of them has got us where we are now.
For example Man United have lost more games than Chelsea or Arsenal but are sitting top because of a pro-active approach based on trying to win games and score goals. Chelsea , for all their hyped home record have taken 7 points less at home than United and have dropped points through draws not defeats. Has that been a risky approach for United or would it have been more risky to try and remain unbeaten at home? Is trying for an away goal more risky than not getting one or less risky?
I'm sitting watching the Arsenal match thinking "they are going to score in a minute" watching our players stand 5 yards away from their midfield looking like muppets while Adebayor wastes chance after chance. Will he continue wasting them , no of course he doesn't , so instead of putting those tackles in and knocking Arsenal out of their stride (eg - 4-0 FACUP) we let them play , let them pass , let them dominate , conserve energy and then have to use it all anyway trying to dig ourselves out of a hole of our own making. Boy did we get away with it that day!!! Why on earth Fergie didn't tell them to do exactly what they did in the FA CUP I don't know. It seemed to work before? But no , he prefered to allow the Arsenal midfield more time and space than they would get against Wigan. Did it work? - no ! They scored and we had to come to life 50 minutes later than we should have. Unbelievable! I could see what was going to happen , I bet you could. Fergie gave them instructions to not get within 5 yards of any Arsenal player thus giving a team that was low on confidence the chance to play their way into the game. Risky or what? Pundits have been saying for years that United are at their most effective playing a high tempo game. If we do the same against Barca their midfield will think it's Xmas come early. In football you have to do what the opposition don't want you to and I reckon Barca were scared of us at the Nou Camp and were grateful that we kept our gloves on. The Barca players and management did not seem at all phased by our tactics probably figuring (in a Rangers type way) that their best chance was at OT.
You see to me Fergie's current tactics seem safe and cautious because we forget the hidden risks involved and perceive adventure and attack as risky and defending as "clever". I think allowing Barca onto us at the noucamp and having no away goals is highly risky and letting Chelsea back into the title race is very risky. Don't kid yourself that Fergie's current tactics are risk free and cautious because looked at in another way they are not. It just feels safer to defend and play cagey , but many teams have plotted their own downfall doing so , teams that are better at it than United are. To me Fergies tactics seem naive and fearful. It's as if losing having a go at it would be worse than losing by palying it cagey (which could easily happen).
So given the choice I would prefer United to take risks the United way rather than take risks the Chelski way. That way United can be true to themselves and and keep their fluency . If it all goes wrong then at least we can say we bought a ticket. Attacking more may be risky but so is defending your 18 yard line for 90 minutes.
You watch against Barca, at some point the game will come alive and release itself from this tactical nonesense and when it does United will be stronger than Barca. I just hope we don't have to wait for them to score before we finally get going. Does our season really have to hang by a thread before we return once again to the football that brought us here?
1 edit
Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue0-0 is good when you are at home but United have gone out twice in these circumsatnces and I can't think of a major tie they have won like this. In a way 0-0 is only marginally better than a 1-2 defeat (eg roma last year) because in both cases you have to score and win to go through. A 1-0 win sees you through in both cases , a 1-1 draw knocks you out in both cases. The only difference with 0-0 is that if it's 0-0 at fulltime you go to extra time...but who expects it to be 0-0 at full time at OT? 0-0 0-0 over two legs is a very rare result. Therefore United are only at best 5% better off than if they had lost 1-2 in the Camp , it might have been better to risk losing 1-2 to have a chance of a 2-1 away win or even 2-2 , which really is a top result. But no , united have forfeited their chance of doing this by going for the slight and dubious "advantage " of a 0-0. So which approach is risky and which is cautious? Assuming that 0-0 is a very unlikely score on Tuesday then United have to win at OT just like against Roma last year. Yes we are better off than at 1-2 but the risk of losing at the Camp was worth the possible rewards. Wake up an smell the coffee Rooney! If we are going to be Champions of Europe then we have to grasp the nettle.
I completely disagree with you.
I wold rather play the final leg at home 0-0, than the final game away 0-0.
The bookmakers also agree and make United favourates.
United have won their last 11 home CL games and are unbeaten in the league at home.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAgain I agree with alot of what you say.
Surely you don't think you are a better judge of how United should play than Fergie? ----rooney
RESPONSE ----- Most of the time obviously not , but on occasions I think he gets too cautious and restricts his players and disrupts the fluency. I think he has some issue about trying to pull off some tactical wonder stroke and sneak through 1-0 like AC ...[text shortened]... verjoyed to have egg all over my face!!!! Come on United!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want United to start with Rooney and Tevez almost all games.
Maybe I'm wrong, I seem to remember that we did start with Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo against Barcelona..
We probably played more defensively against Barcelona because:-
- Vidic was out, that makes us much weaker at the back, it must have really disrupted his plans to lose him to "food poisioning" the night before the game
- Fergie recognizes we are not in best form
- He remembers the 3-1 defeat to Madrid and the 3 goals AC Milan put past us
- Barcelona are resting their best players for the game
- Messi was back and he is the best player in the world
- United have never won away against Barcelona
- Not over extending ourselves worked against Roma and Lyon
About raising our game, I think again its a combination of end of season fatiuge, injuries, lots of difficult games in a short period of time and most importantly (for various reasons, some Fergies fault maybe) a lack of team selection consistency.
I agree that Part of the collapse of Arsenal's season was the pschological blow of the 4-0 defeay to United.
Also a big part was the loss of Eduardo, possibly their best player at the time.
I know how close our season is to colllapse, its also close to great sucess.
I also know its all in our own hands.
(1) Beat Barcelona at home, we're in the CL final.
(2) Beat West Ham at home and Wigan away, we win the league.
I would have taken that at the start of the season.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI agree about taking a risk away from home.
0-0 is good when you are at home but United have gone out twice in these circumsatnces and I can't think of a major tie they have won like this. In a way 0-0 is only marginally better than a 1-2 defeat (eg roma last year) because in both cases you have to score and win to go through. A 1-0 win sees you through in both cases , a 1-1 draw knocks you out ...[text shortened]... feited their chance of doing this by going for the slight and dubious "advantage " of a 0-0.
Personally though I have just seen United give too many goals away in the CL and with Vidic out at the last minute and the reformation of Hargreaves at RB, it has to make you more cautious.
We didn't want to risk losing that game 2-0.
Originally posted by Rooney Once a BlueYes , I would have taken it too , but how did we get here? Do you agree that the tactics at Roma were better than at Barca? Roma are a damn good team who beat Real on their own patch - have Barca done that? Against Roma we were shrewd but ultimately positive , playing with the belief that we were the better team. Game over. Barca? Oh of course , we must fear them because?....um er?
Again I agree with alot of what you say.
I want United to start with Rooney and Tevez almost all games.
Maybe I'm wrong, I seem to remember that we did start with Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo against Barcelona..
We probably played more defensively against Barcelona because:-
- Vidic was out, that makes us much weaker at the back, it must have r ...[text shortened]... e and Wigan away, we win the league.
I would have taken that at the start of the season.
As for lack of form , of course our form is suffering , the players are not being encouraged to express themselves.
Fergie said something very interesting before the Barca match about United needing to "impose" themselves on Barca. Confusing?? It didn't happen! Nor was it likely to the way he had us set up. If that was us imposing ourselves I'd hate to see us go defensive!!
Originally posted by Rooney Once a BlueIt's a risk!! So what. So is 0-0. It's a cup competition and in cup competitions even the favourites are often less than 50-50 to win it. The chances are against any team winning it . Are United odds on to win it? I don't think they are so that means that even at this stage the bookies think United are less likely to be crowned than they are to miss out. So why the cagey-ness ? The whole thing is a b*****y risk. Cup competitions are often won on luck so all you can do is put yourself in with the best shout possible. If we are good enough to win it then we should be good enough to turn over a 0-2 result , infact in a really funny way I'd feel more confident at 0-2 than 0-0. I was there when we did Barca and Maradona at 0-2 and Stapleton scored. No holding back that day.
I agree about taking a risk away from home.
Personally though I have just seen United give too many goals away in the CL and with Vidic out at the last minute and the reformation of Hargreaves at RB, it has to make you more cautious.
We didn't want to risk losing that game 2-0.
A very interesting and informative debate. I agree with with both of you on many points.
Personally, I love to see us go all out and attack yet this rarely happens away from home in Europe. When I saw the team for Barca on paper I assumed that a positive approach was on the cards however our formation (Roo on the right etc.) prevented this. I wonder how great an influence Queiroz has on such tactical decisions?? Anyway by conceding so much possession to Barca on a massive pitch the players ended up covering vast amounts of ground closing down and pressing the ball. As a result when we managed to nick possession players were too exhausted and gave it away cheaply .
I firmly believe we should have gone all out to win against Chelsea and started Ronaldo and Tevez.....the old adage of taking one game at a time. We had four or a maximum five ( fingers crossed) games left before Chelsea match. One of you made the very interesting point about morale would have been raised for Wed, crowd buzzing etc. if we had have secured title. I also think people are being a bit hard on Ronaldo, he has had a magnificent season and I dont think there was any clear evidence of a lack of confidence when he came on...he will be pumped for Tues night.
Lets hope for a great European night on Tues....God help football if Chelsea win the double this year.
Originally posted by Doyle78I agree with what you say. Can you imagine the agony if Chelsea do the double and United fans look at it and think " if only we had attacked" . We are the best team in the league and in Europe , let's stop fannying about and prove it!
A very interesting and informative debate. I agree with with both of you on many points.
Personally, I love to see us go all out and attack yet this rarely happens away from home in Europe. When I saw the team for Barca on paper I assumed that a positive approach was on the cards however our formation (Roo on the right etc.) prevented this. I wonder how g ...[text shortened]... ope for a great European night on Tues....God help football if Chelsea win the double this year.
Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue[b]I completely disagree with you.
I completely disagree with you.
I wold rather play the final leg at home 0-0, than the final game away 0-0.
The bookmakers also agree and make United favourates.
United have won their last 11 home CL games and are unbeaten in the league at home.
I bet Fergie wouldn't!
I wold rather play the final leg at home 0-0, than the final game away 0-0.
Barca score at Old Trafford and you need 2 to win? Your comment is barmy!
The bookmakers also agree and make United favourates.
...and bookies are always right are they?
United have won their last 11 home CL games and are unbeaten in the league at home.
This statistic stands for nothing.
Chelsea are unbeaten in 100 games at Stamford Bridge - are you saying that no-one is ever going to win there again?
1 edit
Originally posted by blade68If you would rather play the final leg away at 0-0 than at home then you are crazy.
[b]I completely disagree with you.
I bet Fergie wouldn't!
I wold rather play the final leg at home 0-0, than the final game away 0-0.
Barca score at Old Trafford and you need 2 to win? Your comment is barmy!
The bookmakers also agree and make United favourates.
...and bookies are always right are they?
United have won their last 11 home CL ...[text shortened]... in 100 games at Stamford Bridge - are you saying that no-one is ever going to win there again?
Obviousy nothing is guaranteed but the bookmakers have United as favourates and they are in the business of making money.
If you think 11 home victories on the run in the CL means nothing then so be it, I can't offer a better argument than that.
Other than United have never beaten Barcelona at Barcelona, sort of the same argument.
If you think Chelsea going 4 years without defeat at home means nothing then so be it.
What I tried to say was United have gone to Chelsea for years and attacked. It rarely works.
All we needed was a draw and we nearly got it.
Also Sir Alex wanted to rest players like Ronaldo and Tevez but you know better, he is wrong to do that.
So you pick a better team that Sir Alex, claim the bookies have the odds wrong, would rather play for a win away from home than at home and claim that 11 home CL wins in a run means nothing.
Everyones entitled to an opinion I guess.
The only thing United have to worry about on Tuesday is that Rooney plays.
If he plays we win, simple as that.
If he doesn't i'd say its 55% 45% in Uniteds favour.
I really don't understand all this anti United stuff at the moment.
People blame Sir Alex and say he'e messing things up.
How many times have people in the past questioned Sir Alex and been left with egg on their faces.
Have some faith United supporters.
People forget we were playing great football, went to Spurs, attacked them and were very lucky to get a late equalizer.
Just because United are the best team and have the best players does not mean we can turn over every team every game home and away.
We beat Liverpool twice this season and were lucky in both.
We beat Arsenal 2-1 and were lucky.
United are a great side but in the modern game you need to rest players and play the squad to try and win multiple trophies.
Also at any time in any game a PL team can take points off you no matter how well you are playing (maybe except Derby).
It was only 2 weeks ago that Chelsea draw at home to Wigan and everyone was calling Grant the worse manager in England.
Lol, how quickly peoples opinions change.
Originally posted by knightmeisterWow. Talk about premature over reactions.
United play flowing attacking, passing football with confidence and guts for most of the season to put them in a great position and then what does Fergie start doing? He seems to be getting the team to retreat into their shell and show far too much respect to teams that just aren't as good as us. Does he enjoy a tight finish to things?
Why didn't he ...[text shortened]... t by making them cautious and fearful? I hope he takes the gloves off soon.
United are still in the driving seat to win the Premier League. Ask any manager in the league if they would take having to win 2 games to win the title, and they'd take it. Tell them that 1 game is against a mid table team with huge injury problems and currently blooding some kids, and a bottom of the table team who are safe, and they'd bite your hand off.
It's true United have always been a superb attacking force. It's true we won the treble like that. It's also true that we've had drubbings from the big European teams playing like that, and it must be remembered that we had to come from 2-0 down in Turin to win the treble. Some of the comebacks that season were the stuff of fantasies. Unfortunately, one can't rely on fantasy results every season. Like a poker player who plays bad hands, your may get one miracle win, but in the long run, you're going to lose money.
United have always been cavalier, but this season our defense is breaking records, despite our worst start ever. Why should a manager ignore these strengths and only play to one of the teams strengths. Surely a top manager needs to use everything at his disposal?
Do I agree with the approach in Barcelona? No. If we win the CL, will I care about semi final, leg 1? No! Could we have fairly easily won the game in Barcelona (via two penalties) ? Yes!
Look at a manager like Rafa Benitez. He took a load of stick at the start of the season because he decided that Liverpool were only going to compete in 1 competition this season: The Champions League. He shaped his season around that decision and if he succeeds in winning it, the Pool fans will forgive him for throwing in the towel in all other competitions and bandy his record of CL final appearances, while hailing him as one of the greatest managers ever.
Ferguson, however, knew that United fans would never accept that and he competed on 3 fronts. 1 game where Pompey played out of their skin and we didn't get a couple of decisions meant we were out of 1. This is football, and you just have to accept that it happens.
Last season Fergie got lambasted for not having a deep enough squad to be a success in Europe. This season, he tries to use his squad and gets lambasted, WHILE STILL IN THE DRIVING SEAT FOR THE PL AND BOOKIE'S FAVOURITE TO REACH THE CL FINAL!
Who'd be a football manager?
D
Originally posted by RagnorakBy "start of the season" you must mean mid December when our first league defeat of the season (to Reading) was obviously when Rafa decided to just compete in the one competition? (the CL - which we still hadn't qualified for the ko stages for at the time)
Look at a manager like Rafa Benitez. He took a load of stick at the start of the season because he decided that Liverpool were only going to compete in 1 competition this season: The Champions League. He shaped his season around that decision and if he succeeds in winning it, the Pool fans will forgive him for throwing in the towel in all other competitio ...[text shortened]... andy his record of CL final appearances, while hailing him as one of the greatest managers ever.
Or do you mean November, when Liverpool were unbeaten at the top of the league - Yeah, I think that's when Rafa wrote that open letter to Liverpool supporters asking if it would be ok if he just concentrated on the CL from there on.
Bell end.
Originally posted by Angry BoyMid December? You mean the time you were 7 points off the top and lying in 4th position after drawing nearly as many as you'd won.
By "start of the season" you must mean mid December when our first league defeat of the season (to Reading) was obviously when Rafa decided to just compete in the one competition? (the CL - which we still hadn't qualified for the ko stages for at the time)
Or do you mean November, when Liverpool were unbeaten at the top of the league - Yeah, I think tha ...[text shortened]... rters asking if it would be ok if he just concentrated on the CL from there on.
Bell end.
When you say "November, when Liverpool were unbeaten at the top of the league", do you acknowledge your football fan insanity, or do you truly believe what you say, even though the table shows Liverpool consistently 6 points behind the leaders and never above 5th.
I reckon I'd probably turn delusional like you if I watched Liverpool play week in week out as well.
D