One of my favorite books is Genesis, A Living Conversation by Bill Moyers. It is basically a round table discussion with a variety of people from artist, theologians, philosophers, writers and musicians who have an open discussion of what the story means to them and why. Occasionally this discussion has been on TV and I find it fascinating how people from a variety of traditions can listen and explore. Kirk
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Originally posted by bbarrThe universe you say does not have to have had a beginning.I agree.
Although I think there was a Big-Bang, I don't think it brought everything into existence. That is, I don't think that it makes sense to say that at some point there was nothing and from out of it came something. I see no reason why the universe must have had a beginning.
So this gets very interesting now.How can something exist without a creator?
Originally posted by missleadA creator is necessary only if everything must have a beginning. If you think that everything must have a beginning and you conclude from this that there must be some first cause, some Prime Mover, then you have contradicted yourself. For the first cause will itself be something, and will itself stand in need of a creator. If you deny that the creator must itself have been created, then you contradict your first claim that everything must have a beginning. The only way out of this contradiction is to adopt the view that at least something exists without a creator. But if you accept that, then why not just accept the view that the universe as a whole can exist without a creator? This is why the Cosmological Argument, as presented by Aristotle and Aquinas, among others, is such a horrible argument. They only get the conclusion they're after by denying the first premise in their argument.
The universe you say does not have to have had a beginning.I agree.
So this gets very intesting now.How can something exist without a creator?
Originally posted by bbarrI thought they seeked only How we should live.What came after was baggage.
A creator is necessary only if everything must have a beginning. If you think that everything must have a beginning and you conclude from this that there must be some first cause, some Prime Mover, then you have contradicted yourself. For the first cause will itself be something, and will itself stand in need of a creator. If you deny that the creator must ...[text shortened]... nt. They only get the conclusion they're after by denying the first premise in their argument.
Originally posted by kirksey957Terrible humor (if one can call it so). Next time you want to post some psuedo-humor do us a favor Kirksey, don't because I would hate to have to get my louisville slugger out of storage 🙂
Have you considered that you are like Eve in that you are the first to be "cast out" of the garden so to speak?
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by bbarr"I wonder, then, why you continue to try to speak meaningfully about God?" Bbarr
If God is not subject to reason, if he is not subject to laws of logic, then he cannot be an object of our knowledge. That is, we cannot think coherently about God. If we cannot think coherently about God, we cannot speak meaningfully about God. So, on your own view, we can't speak meaningfully about God. I wonder, then, why you continue to try to speak m ...[text shortened]... epts apply accurately to God, you are worshipping some phantasm created by your own imagination.
That is a very important question.We cannot get to know God by means or methods of our own. That's impossible. I agree with you on that. The only way we can get to know God, and that is the way He indeed has chosen, is that He decided to let us know who He is. He choose the way we call "revelation". Through accepting that Divine method you can learn who He is and as a result of that you and I can talk meaningfully and think coherently about God.
God himself warned for the dangers you described in your post and He teaches us how to obey Him and not the false idols.
Bbarr: "Literally, if you think that you know what God is like, if you think you can accurately describe God with concepts like Loving, Powerful, Eternal, etc., then you are an idolater.If you think your concepts apply accurately to God, you are worshipping some phantasm created by your own imagination." Bbarr
...... unless ... God himself reveales to us that these aspects of His Being are true and therefore acceptable.
Originally posted by FeivelI thought it was pretty funny. Hey, I'm leaving Louisville, so just any ole stick will do just fine. Moderaters, I forgive his violent streak. Please do him no harm. 😉
Terrible humor (if one can call it so). Next time you want to post some psuedo-humor do us a favor Kirksey, don't because I would hate to have to get my louisville slugger out of storage 🙂
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by FeivelDon't worry I can take knocks.It is part and parcel.If I want to have a voice it comes at at a price.Free speach is expensive.
Terrible humor (if one can call it so). Next time you want to post some psuedo-humor do us a favor Kirksey, don't because I would hate to have to get my louisville slugger out of storage 🙂
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
Originally posted by ivanhoeThat sounds like overt proselytizing because of the 'yet'. I don't object, but I don't see why I should have faith in God, and not, for example, in the belief that any given fellow RHPer is the Messiah.
Royalchicken,
You do nót command Hím ..... not even in the way He chooses to get a relationship with you. He will néver convince you of anything at all in the way yóu want him to convince you. He has chosen Hís own way ....
You have not (yet) learned the lesson that Hé controls things, nót you.
Originally posted by ivanhoeThat is an excellent question;, but I disagree with your conclusion that we can only know of God is the way God has chosen. In fact, I would guess that Bennett talks meaningfully about God because he understands some aspect of the spiritual, the godlike that may not be "traditional" in terms of a judeo-christian point of view. I don't know for sure, but I would want to give anyone the benefit of the doubt to find "their way". One must be careful not to supress something that may have some aspects of the divine or holy that we do not yet understand. Got Jesus in trouble too.
"I wonder, then, why you continue to try to speak meaningfully about God?" Bbarr
That is a very important question.We cannot get to know God by means or methods of our own. That's impossible. I agree with you on that. The only way we can get to know God, and that is the way He indeed has chosen, is that He decided to let us know who He is. He choose th ...[text shortened]... eveales to us that these aspects of His Being are true and therefore acceptable.
Originally posted by kirksey957Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil,
Have you considered that you are like Eve in that you are the first to be "cast out" of the garden so to speak?