I agree with No1's initial post about how engine users should be treated. They should at least be given the right to answer, although that could lead to quite a sad old protestations of innocence thread. We need details about how the procedure works, and not just one of the team of game mods making replys in the forums. I'd like to see a page detailing the techniques used, I'm sure there is a way of doing this that avoids the possibility of cheats finding a workaround, and the procedure by which they are informed of the investigation and the decision. A sudden announcement that 5 players have been banned without any explanation other than "overwhelming evidence of using engines" isn't enough.
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Originally posted by no1marauderI would like to comment. I'm sure each Game Mod might have a somewhat different view on this. So I can only speak for myself.
Anyway, that was my idea and I wonder if given the experience of the last few days anyone, particulary of the present Game Mod team, would care to comment.
On the whole, had your proposals had been followed, I think it would have been at least as contentious, if not more so.
1. Investigations: Why place conditions on who can be investigated? Each case can be assessed on it own merit, based on the validity of the complaint(s) and any supporting evidence. All complaints should be considered.
2. If a player has not cheated, he/she will not be banned and need never know whether he/she was investigated or not. Ongoing observation provides valuable evidence. Informing a suspect of an investigation while evidence is still being gathered is both stupid and pointless, and places undue stress on everyone involved. The resulting evidence may not amount to anything at all. Innocent players could get extremely upset and leave RHP taking friends with them. And what would stop them posting thier "letters informing them..." all over the forums, protesting their innocence, proclaiming harrassment, inciting mutiny, player uprisings, mass resignations etc, etc, etc. It could end up as a complete and utter mess, not to mention compromising everything the Game Mods are attempting to improve.
3. A finding requires the unanimous decision of all game Mods and Russ. 100% certainty (beyond reasonable doubt) based on overwhelming evidence. These are far more stringent conditions than those you have laid down. An extremely high burdon of proof is required.
4. If a mere denial or disagreement from the player could ever be sufficient to overturn a decision that has been made, then clearly the evidence was not strong enough in the first place.
If the actual evidence itself were presented to the suspect, what prevents it's content being distributed, once again, all over the forums, aiding and abetting other cheats in avoiding detection in the future? All our efforts would have been in vain. Even worse, we would now be plagued with undetectable cheats.
4. The consequences of cheating are entirely up to Russ. He has chosen termination. I agree with that.
Amnesty? if you are a cheat, I say stop cheating now, today, this very minute, and you may well be lucky and avoid detection in the future. But amnesty is totally up to Russ. If someone confesses to him there's no need for any Game Mod involvement. But Russ has declared zero tolerance. I suspect that if someone confesses they will be banned.
Any statement like "you matched up to the Fritz 95% in games A, B, C, etc. etc." would certainly cause considerable harm to future efforts. There are no benchmarks, no magic threshholds, every game and every case is different. There are no neat pigeon holes. There may be times when a 60% match is even more suspicious than a 90% match. There may be times when match-ups themselves are completely irrelevant. There may be times when cheating did not involve an engine at all. The only common denominator is that the evidence be overwhelming, and that a case of cheating is "proved" beyond a reasonable doubt,
If any evidence is provided, then all evidence must be provided. Anything less will result in an endless and fruitless forum debate with false conclusions being drawn based on snippets of evidence. I'm afraid it is all or nothing here. All will render the entire exercise futile. So nothing, except the name of the person who has cheated, is needed - its the only way it can work.
Each person must decide whether they have faith in the people and the process, or not. I don't believe it can work much differently than way it does right now. Certain aspects can be improved. There could be additional Game Mods. A section of the site providing more information about cheating and the game mod process itself could be constructed. A form or questionaire could be provided to report suspected cheating. Etc, Etc.
But the integrity of the process requires that the Game Mods deliberate in secret. That is the bottom line.
The overall objective of the Game Mod concept is to dramatically reduce the amount of cheating that occurs at RHP. It is not to provide entertainment in the form of a courtroom drama. Or a trial by forum. In fact, avoiding trial-by-forum is the very reason the Game Mods exist in the first place!
So all the courtroom parallels that have been expressed in this matter are totally misplaced.
RHP is not a democracy. There is no bill of rights. No constitution. It is a business. And this is a management process, the aims of which are to enhance the chess playing experience for honest RHP's customers. The goal is to achieve the maximum degree of honest play at RHP, with the minimum amount of players being banned. The last thing the Game Mods or the Site Admins want are "witch hunts".
But there is blatant cheating going on here and action has to be taken. Not everyone is going to be happy about it. There is a cost involved. But I believe it a case of short-term pain for long-term gain.
Originally posted by GatecrasherI am sorry that the site has once again decided to go the route of giving no useful information at all to the community. This site is a business, true, but the players here aren't merely customers, they are also the PRODUCT. People join to play other players and to chat with others in the forums. The attitude that the feelings of the community are of no importance is a flawed one.
I would like to comment. I'm sure each Game Mod might have a somewhat different view on this. So I can only speak for myself.
On the whole, had your proposals had been followed, I think it would have been at least as contentious, if not more so.
1. Investigations: Why place conditions on who can be investigated? Each case can be assessed on it own ...[text shortened]... out it. There is a cost involved. But I beleive it a case of short-term pain for long-term gain.
Since your attitude is not to share anything with the peasantry, I won't bother to refute you point by point. But the idea that someone can be banned without even being given the opportunity to present their side of the story is deeply repugnant to many people's sense of fair play. That is what has been decided, so be it.
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Originally posted by no1marauderWould you rather have the evidence provided publicly and/or give cheaters a chance to defend themselves OR actually have the cheaters kicked and things getting done?
I am sorry that the site has once again decided to go the route of giving no useful information at all to the community. This site is a business, true, but the players here aren't merely customers, they are also the PRODUCT. People join to play other players and to chat with others in the forums. The attitude that the feelings of the community are of no ...[text shortened]... deeply repugnant to many people's sense of fair play. That is what has been decided, so be it.
It's unfortunate, but I think having both is not possible.
--tmetzler
Originally posted by no1marauderI have to agree with no1marauder here. This does'nt feel like justice because a fair process of defense was not involved. I realize that this is moot since the descision seems to have been made already.
I am sorry that the site has once again decided to go the route of giving no useful information at all to the community. This site is a business, true, but the players here aren't merely customers, they are also the PRODUCT. People join to play other players and to chat with others in the forums. The attitude that the feelings of the community are of no ...[text shortened]... deeply repugnant to many people's sense of fair play. That is what has been decided, so be it.
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Originally posted by no1marauderI began my post with the words: "I can only speak for myself"
I am sorry that the site has once again decided to go the route of giving no useful information at all to the community. This site is a business, true, but the players here aren't merely customers, they are also the PRODUCT. People join to play other players and to chat with others in the forums. The attitude that the feelings of the community are of no ...[text shortened]... deeply repugnant to many people's sense of fair play. That is what has been decided, so be it.
I cannot speak for anyone else. And I don't speak for Russ or the Site or any other Game Mod.
You asked for comments - I gave them. These are my opinions. Don't ascribe them to anyone other than me.
Originally posted by tmetzlerIf the evidence is strong enough, then there should be no fear of presenting some of it to the accused and giving them a chance to respond to the Game Mods. If their guilt is so apparent, what is lost? I didn't ask for public exposure of the evidence; I asked that the accused themselves be given some opportunity to rebut it. Having a Star Chamber like proceeding where people are found guilty without even knowing they are accused of wrongdoing is against every concept of justice I've ever heard. No one's asking for a public trial; suspend their Forum privileges if you want while they are given a chance to defend themselves to the Game Mods. That would avoid all this terrible vetting of people's opinions that Gatecrasher is soooooooo worried about.
Would you rather have the evidence provided publicly and/or give cheaters a chance to defend themselves OR actually have the cheaters kicked and things getting done?
It's unfortunate, but I think having both is not possible.
--tmetzler
I want things done, I want cheaters removed, but doing it the way it was done with secret evidence and the accused never being able to respond, taints the whole process. I never thought someone would be banned without even knowing it; that's absurd! Can't you people see that you've given an appearance of basic unfairness to the system and then are insisting in total trust of your judgment? You can't do it this way and expect people to have anything but doubt about the results, Tmetz.
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Giving somebody the opportunity to "defend" themselves when the evidence is BLATENT, achieves nothing. Should we wait until we get the "tearful confession"? All it does is invite them to argue and deny. The results will be the same, the evidence will not change. We ain't kicking nobody until the evidence is undeniable, so what is the point in inviting them to deny it? It only delay things, risks compromising the investigation process of future cheats and wastes time.
--tmetzler
Originally posted by tmetzlerPlease read what you've just written; the idea that it's "a waste of time" to give somebody a chance to respond to allegations of wrongdoing is positively Kafkesque. You've decided to go the "infallibility" route rather than the "finding of overwhelming evidence in a fair process" routine. To save what; a few days? BS.
Giving somebody the opportunity to "defend" themselves when the evidence is BLATENT, achieves nothing. Should we wait until we get the "tearful confession"? All it does is invite them to argue and deny. The results will be the same, the evidence will not change. We ain't kicking nobody until the evidence is undeniable, so what is the point in invit ...[text shortened]... gs, risks compromising the investigation process of future cheats and wastes time.
--tmetzler
Originally posted by tmetzlerI would have, and did, give him a chance to respond to my allegations although because of the restrictive rules on the site I could not contact him directly. I don't think there's anything that could have changed my mind, but I have to give the possibility, unlikely as it may seem, that he had some defense. What is lost by by giving someone the chance to defend themselves? The process wouldn't have the air of arbitrariness and unfairness it does now. Maybe he would have admitted guilt and the community would have been spared the recriminations; who knows? There were things to be potentially gained and nothing of importance to be lost.
Is there something that IM could have said that would have convinced YOU, that you were wrong about your analysis of his play?
You decided he was an engine user long before we did. Could he have changed YOUR mind?
--tmetzler
Originally posted by Checkmate187Who even suggested you were cheating? If anything we would be
Then again, curse words are an expression of anger that cannot be expressed any other way, like on a forum. This whole thing is bull****.
Anyone is welcome to look at any of my games. I protest the way things have been handled.
So again, I say, blow me.
thinking of Weyerstass, a real IM at least in CC.