Originally posted by Hand of HecateWagner was no pig. IN effect he gave a Jewish conductor his big break. Wagner never killed anyone, never participated in a pogrom, never made a lampshade out of a human nor did he live in the era of the Nazi's. Cannot compare Wagner creative genius. If Wagner is fine by James Levine, a Jew, Wagner is fine by me! Nuff said! I do not dispute he was an anti-semite. So were most Europeans of the day. Am I to stop reading 19th cty greats because of this? You are judging histroy backwards!
I imagine the Nazis thought they were being "artistic" when they made decorative lampshades out of the tanned skin of Jews as well. Are you able to put their antisemitism and whatever revulsion you might feel aside and appreciate their work for its artistic value alone? How about the gas chambers themselves? From an engineering standpoint they were ...[text shortened]... can dress up a pig and spray it with flowery scents, but, it remains a pig. Wagner was a pig.
Originally posted by wormwoodThat is hilarious, but were you thinking of me or HoH? Or both? Ha! Very, very funny!
hahah, there's a curb your enthusiasm bit about larry whistling wagner on the street, and some guy making a crazy scene about it.
starts at 1:54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lPM7mplrqQ
Originally posted by scacchipazzoWagner and his ilk paved the road for the fascist plague that swept up the German people. He did begrugingly further the career of various Jews, but, only to serve his own ends. All said and done, Wagner may as well have been stuffing Jews into the ovens himself.
Wagner was no pig. IN effect he gave a Jewish conductor his big break. Wagner never killed anyone, never participated in a pogrom, never made a lampshade out of a human nor did he live in the era of the Nazi's. Cannot compare Wagner creative genius. If Wagner is fine by James Levine, a Jew, Wagner is fine by me! Nuff said! I do not dispute he was an ant ...[text shortened]... e day. Am I to stop reading 19th cty greats because of this? You are judging histroy backwards!
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, which gives us the luxury of picking and choosing what we want to read, listen to and believe. Choose something else and leave Wagner as a selection of music to slaughter pigs to lest it contaminate the finer things in life. It's not like anyone is going to sing a Wagner opera on American Idol now is it?
Originally posted by Hand of HecateHow dare you compare Wagner to anything on American Idol. Wagner is high art. Wagner had nothing to do with ovens, pogroms, the Holocaust or any killings. Simply because he became the favorite of the Nazis 50 plus years after his death is blaming Wagner for things he had nothing to do with or suggested as being in need of doing. The Nazis also played Beethoven at Auschwitz as people were led into the ovens/gas chambers. Should I kick Beethoven to the curb as well? How about Schubert, Schumann, Johan Strauss? Wagner died in 1883. Guess who was with him when he died? Hermann Levi, a Jewish conductor. How did Wagner further his own career by giving Levi a chance? Wagner was at the pinnacle of his career when he gave Levi the opportunity to conduct at Bayreuth, that temple to everything Wagnerian. Wagner had the King of Bavaria in his pocket. He hardly needed an unkown Jewish conductor to further himself.
Wagner and his ilk paved the road for the fascist plague that swept up the German people. He did begrugingly further the career of various Jews, but, only to serve his own ends. All said and done, Wagner may as well have been stuffing Jews into the ovens himself.
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, which gives us the luxury of picking and choosing ...[text shortened]... ings in life. It's not like anyone is going to sing a Wagner opera on American Idol now is it?
Also, there were Jews helping with the killings at the death camps. The sonderkommando assisted heavily in the very process of slaughter and did so out of self interest in survival. Substantially more culpable than Wagner I would say. Should I withdraw my support for Jewish muisc because of the sonderkommando?
Also never forget Hitler himself may have been Jewish! He razed his birthplace to eradicate any record which could reveal these ties. When he finally had the armed forces in his hands he bombarded Braunau to ensure this was never uncovered.
Originally posted by Hand of HecateI correct myself. According to accounts of the era by survivors musicians were givern special treatment, were forced to play in small orchestras at the entrance to the "showeres". At Auschcwitz the nazi in charge of the mass killings, with the approval of Rudolf Hoess, camp commandant, actually stated he wanted nothing "heavy" or somber like Wagner played at all, but light music such as Strauss, Offenbach, Mozart and Haydn quartets. More musicians to scratch off my play list? Wagner was used more at party rallies, concerts and other public presentations and held up as a symbol of German greatness. Your run of the mill nazi would not even get Wagner at all and I seriously doubt Hitler or the top nazi leaders were that cultured so as to understand Wagner.
Wagner and his ilk paved the road for the fascist plague that swept up the German people. He did begrugingly further the career of various Jews, but, only to serve his own ends. All said and done, Wagner may as well have been stuffing Jews into the ovens himself.
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, which gives us the luxury of picking and choosing ...[text shortened]... ings in life. It's not like anyone is going to sing a Wagner opera on American Idol now is it?
Originally posted by scacchipazzoWagner did, in fact, suggest that Jews could be de-Jewerized. That their very Jewishness could be removed from them and that they could be made into productive and maleable servants. Hence his use of the Jews in further his own endeavours. Levi's dog like loyalty is evidence of this.
How dare you compare Wagner to anything on American Idol. Wagner is high art. Wagner had nothing to do with ovens, pogroms, the Holocaust or any killings. Simply because he became the favorite of the Nazis 50 plus years after his death is blaming Wagner for things he had nothing to do with or suggested as being in need of doing. The Nazis also played Be ...[text shortened]... nally had the armed forces in his hands he bombarded Braunau to ensure this was never uncovered.
Secondly, Beethoven and others were played to soothe the Jews, lull them into a false sense of security and ease their burden of truth. Hardly the same as Wagners heavy handed and oppressive music. Wagner is something you throw on to beat someone to. I agree with you about Schumann though, he was a hack.
Originally posted by scacchipazzoAs I said, Wagner = Blunt Object. Anyone that seriously considers Wagner to be "high art" should be fed into a wood chipper feet first.
I correct myself. According to accounts of the era by survivors musicians were givern special treatment, were forced to play in small orchestras at the entrance to the "showeres". At Auschcwitz the nazi in charge of the mass killings, with the approval of Rudolf Hoess, camp commandant, actually stated he wanted nothing "heavy" or somber like Wagner play ...[text shortened]... eriously doubt Hitler or the top nazi leaders were that cultured so as to understand Wagner.
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Originally posted by Hand of Hecateyou'll need a much more efficient way to get rid of wagner fans, a large system of gas chambers or something.
As I said, Wagner = Blunt Object. Anyone that seriously considers Wagner to be "high art" should be fed into a wood chipper feet first.
the final solution to the wagner problem.
Originally posted by Hand of HecateI like the final solution to the Wagner question post bby wormwood. No way Wagner is not high art. cannot escape the Wagner influence. Every time you listen to movie music you're listening to the Wagner influence. Wagner wrote some of the most sublime music in history. Prelude to Tristan und Isolde is but a small example of his creative genius. The Ring changed art forever. Die Meistersinger is beyonf comparison. The you reach the exalted hieghts of Parsifal! I shall keep my Wagner and you keep your American Idol!
Wagner did, in fact, suggest that Jews could be de-Jewerized. That their very Jewishness could be removed from them and that they could be made into productive and maleable servants. Hence his use of the Jews in further his own endeavours. Levi's dog like loyalty is evidence of this.
Secondly, Beethoven and others were played to soothe the Jews, ...[text shortened]... ething you throw on to beat someone to. I agree with you about Schumann though, he was a hack.