General Forum

General Forum

  1. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    09 Mar '16 14:04
    So, a beloved person just got her Alzheimer diagnose. Not a huge
    surprise but painful nonetheless. As people age, it is easy to blame
    forgetfulness on the pass of time. But then it gets more serious and
    other symptoms appear, and there is still a period where we all
    brush it off with a nervous laugh, even the occasional joke. And
    then it hits you. A fall or a mere cold, then a common visit to the
    doctor, with the usual yet sinister 'it's surely nothing but let's run
    some tests just to cast away any worries.' And the worries only
    increase after that. From the general doctor you go into the
    hematologist, then the geriatric nurse followed by the neurologist.
    And then you read more about the disease. And then it hits you.
    The indignity of dying slowly.

    First the words escape them. Then basic functions. And it gets worse
    when the faces and names of those most dear are no longer stored
    in her mind. Until the most bodily functions condemn the person to
    being a sack of flesh and bones being looked after by a tired, somber
    nurse. And at the end a simple infection finishes the job. But only after
    having existed in the limbo between sentient human being and a
    vegetable. Only after the indignity of growing roots and dust and spiderwebs
    tied up to a chair, a sofa, or a hospital bed.

    The more I think of it, the more I wonder: isn't more dignified to go in
    one's own terms?
  2. Joined
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    09 Mar '16 14:27
    Originally posted by Seitse
    The more I think of it, the more I wonder: isn't more dignified to go in
    one's own terms?
    In my opinion it is. I am therefore a member of the NVVE (Dutch organisation of voluntary life ending = https://www.nvve.nl/about-nvve ). I didn't have a choice to be born but I will decide when i'll die.
  3. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    09 Mar '16 15:31
    Originally posted by Kegge
    In my opinion it is. I am therefore a member of the NVVE (Dutch organisation of voluntary life ending = https://www.nvve.nl/about-nvve ). I didn't have a choice to be born but I will decide when i'll die.
    I have been seriously pondering about this issue for the past years. I mean, what
    my position is, how do I feel about it, and what will I do when the time comes.
  4. Joined
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    09 Mar '16 15:35
    Originally posted by Seitse
    I have been seriously pondering about this issue for the past years. I mean, what
    my position is, how do I feel about it, and what will I do when the time comes.
    It has taken me years to come to this conclusion. Now that I have made up my mind I feel more at ease about growing older and the downsides that come with it.
  5. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    10 Mar '16 06:46
    Originally posted by Kegge
    It has taken me years to come to this conclusion. Now that I have made up my mind I feel more at ease about growing older and the downsides that come with it.
    This is very interesting. I guess reaching peace ought to be the happy outcome
    of any decision. How does it work over there? I mean, paperwork-wise.
  6. Joined
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    10 Mar '16 09:15
    Originally posted by Seitse
    This is very interesting. I guess reaching peace ought to be the happy outcome
    of any decision. How does it work over there? I mean, paperwork-wise.
    Unfortunately it isn't as easy as just deciding to end your life. Our euthanasia laws demand that your suffering is unbearable and unending before a committee of doctors may agree to your wishes. The debate is of course how to decide what is unbearable and unending. Especially for people suffering from Alzheimer's this is very difficult. Patients in the early phases of the disease often make up their "will" to be euthanized when they no longer recognize the people close to them.

    However, before the doctor gives you the lethal dose he asks the patient if he consents to the procedure. And often enough the patient doesn't want to die any more and can not remember he actually made up the will in the first place and even after the will is shown the patient often doesn't change his mind. The doctors will now not continue the procedure because the patient declares he is not suffering unbearably ...

    In my opinion we do have a long way to go before we can fully determine when and how to do die with dignity ourselves. Until then you will have to kill yourself when needed.
  7. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
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    10 Mar '16 10:13
    Originally posted by Seitse
    So, a beloved person just got her Alzheimer diagnose. Not a huge
    surprise but painful nonetheless. As people age, it is easy to blame
    forgetfulness on the pass of time. But then it gets more serious and
    other symptoms appear, and there is still a period where we all
    brush it off with a nervous laugh, even the occasional joke. And
    then it hits you. A fall o ...[text shortened]... bed.

    The more I think of it, the more I wonder: isn't more dignified to go in
    one's own terms?
    “There are two kinds of people:
    those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
    and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'"
    -C.S. Lewis
  8. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    10 Mar '16 11:52
    Originally posted by Kegge
    Unfortunately it isn't as easy as just deciding to end your life. Our euthanasia laws demand that your suffering is unbearable and unending before a committee of doctors may agree to your wishes. The debate is of course how to decide what is unbearable and unending. Especially for people suffering from Alzheimer's this is very difficult. Patients in the early ...[text shortened]... and how to do die with dignity ourselves. Until then you will have to kill yourself when needed.
    I got you guys mixed up with Belgium then. Which was the country moving
    towards voluntary death regardless of suffering?
  9. Joined
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    10 Mar '16 12:01
    Originally posted by Seitse
    I got you guys mixed up with Belgium then. Which was the country moving
    towards voluntary death regardless of suffering?
    The laws in Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland are very similar. I do not know of a country having more liberal laws regarding euthanasia.
  10. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    10 Mar '16 12:26
    Originally posted by Kegge
    The laws in Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland are very similar. I do not know of a country having more liberal laws regarding euthanasia.
    O.k., went through my browsing history. Got confused by a story about people
    campaigning for euthanasia even when there is no unbearable suffering.

    How do you feel about the requirements being imposed on you right now?
  11. Joined
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    10 Mar '16 12:31
    Originally posted by Kegge
    The laws in Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland are very similar. I do not know of a country having more liberal laws regarding euthanasia.
    From here the desperate go to Switzerland and I think it's called the 'Diignitas Clinic" to gain a dignified end away from the right wing religious mob and the beurocrats.
  12. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    10 Mar '16 14:24
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    From here the desperate go to Switzerland and I think it's called the 'Diignitas Clinic" to gain a dignified end away from the right wing religious mob and the beurocrats.
    In Switzerland they service all foreigners?
  13. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    10 Mar '16 14:31
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    “There are two kinds of people:
    those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,'
    and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'"
    -C.S. Lewis
    And the takeaway here is that was said by a human, not a god.
  14. Joined
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    10 Mar '16 14:41
    Originally posted by Seitse
    O.k., went through my browsing history. Got confused by a story about people
    campaigning for euthanasia even when there is no unbearable suffering.

    How do you feel about the requirements being imposed on you right now?
    In my opinion everybody should be able to decide themselves if and when they want to end their lives. That is of course already possible by committing suicide the blunt way, but I am an advocate to let people end there lives in a less messy way by using the "Drion pill" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drion's_pill) for instance ... or the Soylent Green treatment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green)
  15. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
    That's Why I Drink
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    10 Mar '16 16:53
    Originally posted by Kegge
    In my opinion everybody should be able to decide themselves if and when they want to end their lives. That is of course already possible by committing suicide the blunt way, but I am an advocate to let people end there lives in a less messy way by using the "Drion pill" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drion's_pill) for instance ... or the Soylent Green treatment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green)
    Indeed, even in death there is room for a humane, sensible approach.

    It is surprising that Drion's pill has not been beyond the mere theoretical
    even though it dates back to the 70s.
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