09 Feb 04
The Return Of Paganism
2004-02-08
February 07, 2004 — Like European politicians who continue to block any mention of Christianity in the draft of the continent's Constitution, public officials around the globe increasingly are adopting measures that favor a return to pre-Christian paganism.
http://www.lifeissues.net/news.php?newsID=00005806&topic=
09 Feb 04
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoewell this is probably a good thing provided we don't regress to the bizarre and violent ritualistic practises that permeate organized religions as well.
The Return Of Paganism
2004-02-08
February 07, 2004 ? Like European politicians who continue to block any mention of Christianity in the draft of the continent's Constitution, public officials around the globe increasingly are adopting ...[text shortened]...
http://www.lifeissues.net/news.php?newsID=00005806&topic=
what i never understand are these attempts to eliminate jesus eg "the British Red Cross banned the mention of Jesus from its shop"
whether you see him as related to god, the god or the very 1st president of the carpenters' union isn't the point.
here is a paragon of wisdom and compassion, a teacher for all whatever be your religion, someone who actually had 'the answer' that all seek.
instead of recognizing and honoring him through our lives, he is made an outcast by the very species he redeems.
it does us no credit 🙁
in friendship,
prad
09 Feb 04
Originally posted by pradtfHi!
well this is probably a good thing provided we don't regress to the bizarre and violent ritualistic practises that permeate organized religions as well.
what i never understand are these attempts to eliminate jesus eg "the British Red Cross banned the mention of Jesus from its shop"
whether you see him as related to god, the god or the very 1st presi ...[text shortened]... e an outcast by the very species he redeems.
it does us no credit 🙁
in friendship,
prad
Prad well typed.
Big G.
10 Feb 04
"first president of the carpenters union" That's funny!
OK, here's the gospel. The biggest threat to Christianity is not from politicians or the Freethinkers (though Rob would have you believe so). The biggest threat to Christianity is the organized church as we know it. There are many fine churches and Christians who do indeed practice their faith with integrity, devotion, and humility. They are doing their part to make the world better and have succeeded on many counts. And there are also large parts of the organized church that practice a theology of "splitting off", the practice of demonizing the very humanity that is part of who we are. My rule of thumb: When you see a minister on TV (or any other place for that matter) ask yourself if you exchanged the word "Jesus" for "car" would you buy a car from that person? If not, why would you dedicate your life to that?
10 Feb 04
bannOriginally posted by pradtfI find it difficult to believe that someone of your presumed intelligence could make such a ridiculous post. The fact is that there are many of us who do not believe that Jesus was the paragon of wisdom. Nor do I believe that he has any "answer" at all. Your assertion that he redeems our species is pure conjecture, and for you expect everyone to "recognize and honor him through our lives" is a patently offensive notion. For the British Red Cross to stray from their task by endorsing your narrow minded religion would be a grave mistake. They have done well by banning his mention. It would do us great credit to make him an outcast everwhere.
well this is probably a good thing provided we don't regress to the bizarre and violent ritualistic practises that permeate organized religions as well.
what i never understand are these attempts to eliminate jesus eg "the British Red Cross banned the mention of Jesus from its shop"
whether you see him as related to god, the god or the very 1st p ...[text shortened]... e an outcast by the very species he redeems.
it does us no credit 🙁
in friendship,
prad
10 Feb 04
Originally posted by rwingettIt becomes increasingly obvious to me that you don't have the slightest notion as to what the Christian theology is about.
I find it difficult to believe that someone of your presumed intelligence could make such a ridiculous post. The fact is that there are many of us who do not believe that Jesus was the paragon of wisdom. Nor do I believe that he has any "answer" at all. Your assertion that he redeems our species is pure conjecture, and for you expect everyone to "recogni ...[text shortened]... done well by banning his mention. It would do us great credit to make him an outcast everwhere.
10 Feb 04
6 edits
Originally posted by rwingettnow rob! don't get all upset because kirksey said you are no longer the main threat to christianity 😀
I find it difficult to believe that someone of your presumed intelligence could make such a ridiculous post. The fact is that there are many of us who do not believe that Jesus was the paragon of wisdom. Nor do I believe that he has any " ...[text shortened]... ion. It would do us great credit to make him an outcast everwhere.
if you don't see jesus the way i stated that's up to you - i just think that this is one of the remarkable beings of our history.
if you don't believe he has any answer at all or that he wasn't particularly wise - again that's fine. however, i notice that you were not critical about the compassion part. therefore, i conjecture that you do not deny him that at least - and possibly that you even may think this is a good thing.
if you acknowledge that there is some value in his teachings and actions, surely it is not a bad idea for us to put some of those into practice. if we do this, we are indeed recognizing and honoring him - and others who have taught the same - remember these ideas aren't an exclusive franchise, but it nevertheless takes courage to propagate them even in the present.
it is my fault though for not being clear about the red cross thing. in proper context, it referred to eliminating christ from christmas - which seems rather silly to me. i only quoted a single item that was clearly not the best example so here are some others from the article:
"Also barred were Christmas cards with nativity scenes and Advent calendars showing Mary and Joseph and the three wise men"
"the Christmas card sent out by the United Kingdom's culture secretary ... failed to show was anything about Jesus or Christmas"
"in Australia, the Victorian state minister for transport ... opted for a Christmas card ... without any Christian reference"
"Scotland's Parliament also abolished any reference to Christianity in its cards"
i do not see the logic in trying to get the christ out of christmas because then all you'd have is a mas - commercialization has already accomplished much of that for us.
as for your attempt at a flourishingly nasty concluding statement, my presumed intelligence feels that what you are really upset about is not jesus (you never met the dude) nor the reality that many people from various religions and philosophies do not outcast him (some are very accepting), but how he has been 'used' throughout history to further the unscrupulous power and monetary goals of individuals and groups.
at least, this is what i think you are getting at - being crucified once is bad enough, no one should have to endure it eternally.
in friendship,
prad
10 Feb 04
Originally posted by ivanhoeLittle confused by these posts.
The Return Of Paganism
2004-02-08
February 07, 2004 — Like European politicians who continue to block any mention of Christianity in the draft of the continent's Constitution, public officials around the globe increasingly are adopting measures that favor a return to pre-Christian paganism.
http://www.lifeissues.net/news.php?newsID=00005806&topic=
What people seem to be advocating is one group of believers not have a right to conduct a wedding service or say a prayer - while another group of believers should be allowed to demonstrate their beliefs through goverment services and sponsored charities.
Are you advocating equal rights for pagan and Christian or special rights for one of the groups? And if you think one should get special treatment, who makes this decision?
10 Feb 04
Originally posted by pradtfChristmas has become increasingly secularized as the mention of "Christ" has become more of a liability in the public sphere. I have no problem with this. Quite the contrary, I endorse it wholeheartedly. If it bothers you to have Christmas with no Christ, then change the name of the holiday. Call it Yuletide, or something. For me, Christmas is about getting together with your loved ones and appreciating their company. I certainly don't sit around giving thanks that one particular Nazarene got himself nailed up.
now rob! don't get all upset because kirksey said you are no longer the main threat to christianity 😀
if you don't see jesus the way i stated that's up to you - i just think that this is one of the remarkable beings of our history.
if you don't believe he has any answer at all or that he wasn't particularly wise - again that's fine. however, i ...[text shortened]... crucified once is bad enough, no one should have to endure it eternally.
in friendship,
prad
Many of the lessons that Jesus taught are not exclusive to him. Christianity does not have a monopoly on morality. You don't need Jesus to know that murder is wrong. If Jesus had never existed, murder would still be wrong and we would know that it was wrong. I don't need to thank, or honor, him for this knowledge. If a person, or institution, honors Jesus, they do so not for some specific teaching. They are, in effect, endorsing the entire rotten kettle of fish that Christianity is.
10 Feb 04
4 edits
Originally posted by rwingettIf it bothers you to have Christmas with no Christ, then change the name of the holiday. Call it Yuletide, or something.
If it bothers you to have Christmas with no Christ, then change the name of the holiday. Call it Yuletide, or something. For me, Christmas is about getting together with your loved ones and appreciating their company. I certainly don't si ...[text shortened]... endorsing the entire rotten kettle of fish that Christianity is.
that's fine - but until that happens i see nothing wrong keeping the christ in there
you may be as surprised as i was to learn about the historical 'origins' of christmas (see fjord's posts in what's this about christmas thread http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?id=7980) - they, of course, have nothing to do with christ. however, the present celebration, to my understanding at any rate is supposed to have something to do with christ even though that may be hard to see when you go shopping at that time of year. (i don't so i have been spared)
I certainly don't sit around giving thanks that one particular Nazarene got himself nailed up..
not many do. he didn't get himself nailed up, rob, some very fearful and hateful people did this to him because they saw him as a threat. this sort of thing (in various forms) happens to many who are labelled 'extremist' and society tends to honor its live conformists but only its dead troublemakers. as the u2 song jesus christ goes:
Well the bankers and the preachers
They nailed him on a cross
...
Well if Jesus was to preach while he preached in Galilee
They would lay Jesus Christ in his grave
again, i don't think your quarrel is with jesus.
Many of the lessons that Jesus taught are not exclusive to him. Christianity does not have a monopoly on morality
of course not. but many people get inspired by his teachings, actions and courage. if by 'following' jesus you become more 'ethical' (for instance, you recognize that murder is wrong and therefore don't go around killing everyone as often), what's so bad about that? surely, it is the nature of one's actions that is the issue here and jesus' influence is as good as anyone elses - so why pick on him?
If a person, or institution, honors Jesus, they do so not for some specific teaching. They are, in effect, endorsing the entire rotten kettle of fish that Christianity is.
again a sweeping flourish of concluding nastiness! correct me if i am wrong, but i don't think jesus invented christianity as such. nor should he be held responsible for the deplorable state parts of it have descended to. in fact, that is why we have so many sects of christianity isn't it? people smelled the rot and tried to move elsewhere - some because they actually do want to 'clean up' (read kirksey's earlier post)
i think you have already grudgingly acknowledged that jesus' teachings are probably a good thing though they are not necessarily unique to him. the fact that people commit atrocities (of various forms) through a religion that has been given his name isn't his fault (he was murdered a long time ago). because some people and institutions honor jesus or his teachings is by no means an endorsement of the rotten parts - in fact, it is quite the opposite. by honoring jesus (and please don't take this too religiously), we protest against what has been done to the noble ideas that he (and others, of course) had propagated. through appreciation of the 'preaching' we can indeed condemn much of the 'practice'.
in friendship,
prad