06 Dec 03
Originally posted by fearlessleaderAnd I have no clue what "REJECTED" is, but I am a Finn! 🙂
i have no clue what a Finn is, but i reconginse your avatar form REJECTED.
(I found the avatar at a website that had a whole lot of avatars for offer - can't remember the address. I just liked the look... 😀)
-Jarno
07 Dec 03
1 edit
Originally posted by dylSure. 🙂
Happy independence day.
Perhaps you could tell us something about it. It would save me the trouble of looking it up. 😵
Finns had been for centuries either under the rule of Sweden or Russia, despite having a strong national indentity - before the independence we did have a period of autonomy under Russian rule, but our freedoms were subject to the whims of Russian rulers. As the Russian empire was overthrown by the communsts, Finland used the opportunity provided by the confusion to issue a declaration of independence on the 6th of December, 1917. The soviet cabinet headed by Lenin at the time recognized the independence of Finland, and Finland became an independent democratic republic.
As could be expected, the "and they lived happily ever after" didn't come right after that though - first we had a bloody civil war, as the "whites" (democrats) fought and defeated the communist uprising of the "reds", who were supported by the Soviet Union. After that (the short version of the story) Stalin essentially decided that Finland should be a part of the Soviet Union, Finns didn't agree, hence the Winter War of 1939-40.
Surpricingly, the attackers were repelled despite their 10 to 1 manpower advantage, and better equipment (often called the "miracle" of the Winter War). There were many factors that played in to that, so while an outstanding piece of military history, I wouldn't quite call the successful defense a mirracle.
In the end there was yet another war with the Soviet Union, the Continuation War of of 1941-44 which ended in a formal loss, but what later would be viewed as a great victory; despite loosing some territory, and having to pay heavy war reparations, we did manage, against the odds, to hold on to our independence.
As if the wars up to that point weren't enough, Finns ended up fighting the Germans as well - they assisted Finland in the Continuation War, but once the peace had been negotiated with the Soviet Union, they weren't so eager to leave amicably. Finns had to drive the German foces out - the German forces retreated through Lapland, burning everything in their wake, and this was the Lapland War of 1944-45.
I really have to admire my grandfather's generation - Finland was dirt poor, the country was devastated by the wars, and Finland had to house the refugees from the areas lost to Soviet Union, but after the wars, Finns built a strong Steel industry to pay the reparations to the Soviets, and then used that industry, as well as the wealth of our forests to quickly raise our country to be among the richest in the world, and that's were we've stayed. My grandfather's generation also managed to pay off their war and reconstruction debt to the United States in full, making Finland the only country to have done so.
With this kind of history, and this kind of a cost to independence, it's no wonder that Finns tend to place great importance to December the 6th. 🙂
-Jarno
07 Dec 03
...Stalin essentially decided that Finland should be a part of the Soviet Union, Finns didn't agree, hence the Winter War of 1939-40.Calling the Winter War a successful defense is like the Americans calling the Alamo a successful defense. It was a heroic defense, but in the end they lost. The Finns inflicted terrible losses on the Soviet army, but in the end the Mannerheim line was breached and Finland had to surrender. Large amounts of territory were subsequently ceded to the Soviet Union. Calling it a praiseworthy defense might be accurate, but I don't think it could rightly be called successful.
Surpricingly, the attackers were repelled despite their 10 to 1 manpower advantage, and better equipment (often called the "miracle" of the Winter War). There were many factors that played in to that, so while an outstanding piece of military history, I wouldn't quite call the successful defense a mirracle...
07 Dec 03
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettOf course you are correct - the territory losses of South-Eastern Finland indeed came in the Winter War. I got my facts mixed up. Though whether to call it a successful defense is much a matter of perspective - what was successfully defended was the thing that mattered most; the newfound independence.
Calling the Winter War a successful defense is like the Americans calling the Alamo a successful defense. It was a heroic defense, but in the end they lost. The Finns inflicted terrible losses on the Soviet army, but in the end the Mannerh ...[text shortened]... ccurate, but I don't think it could rightly be called successful.
The war began as a result of Finland refusing the Soviet Union the right to build military basis in the country, which it demanded. In retrospect, refusing was a right decision, as accepting that would have definitely put Finland under the wing of Soviet Union, or most likely made Finland a part of the Soviet Union, as happened to the Baltic states. The right of self-government was the crucial thing for the future of the Finnish people, though loosing territory in addition to the heavy human cost of the war was of course tough to bear. (My granmother was actually among the refugees from Karelia, from the lost territories)
For this reason, Finns today have a hard time viewing the wars as losses, though that was of course what they were. As the yonger generation doesn't feel longing for the lost territory, and what we have is still a large country (considering that there are only a little more than 5 million inhabitants) the losses seem rather insignificant for modern Finland.
-Jarno
07 Dec 03
Originally posted by PyrrhoSo not a Pyrrhic victory 😛?
Of course you are correct - the territory losses of South-Eastern Finland indeed came in the Winter War. I got my facts mixed up. Though whether to call it a successful defense is much a matter of perspective - what was successfully defended was the thing that mattered most; the newfound independence.
The war began as a result of Finland refusing the So ...[text shortened]... than 5 million inhabitants) the losses seem rather insignificant for modern Finland.
-Jarno