Originally posted by RingtailhunterYou overrate the standard commercial engines; they're tactical monsters but their learning capabilities are still limited. They still evaluate based on algorithms entered into the engines and unless you manually change them, the engine is going to make the same move in the same position time after time. "Learning" would also only apply if the move was actually later evaluated as an inferior move, not if it was a successful one.
This may not be possible what you are suggesting. The newer better engines can run on learning which shredder does. It will learn from all the games it plays and analyzes; if it finds a line it lost with it will swiftly abandon it. With learning off it will play book and evaluate like any other engine. The new machines will be more human than human and much harder to detect.
Originally posted by no1marauderYep there are alot of settings to tinker with, games to analyze positions to crunch. I can load a position into shredder and have it play another UCI engine in an engine match switching sides ten games or so. Shredder may lose the first game maybe the second but not any after that from either side.
You overrate the standard commercial engines; they're tactical monsters but their learning capabilities are still limited. They still evaluate based on algorithms entered into the engines and unless you manually change them, the engine is going to make the same move in the same position time after time. "Learning" would also only apply if the move was actually later evaluated as an inferior move, not if it was a successful one.
I aggree that they are limited now but that will change real soon.
Originally posted by celticcountryAllows? heck, encourages. Yahoo is aptly named. Bunch of idiots
yahoo ALLOWS ENGINE USE
over there. All the point pushers, what do they call them, going
after getting 30,000 points or some try to get negative #'s just
for kicks and half of them on engines. Yeech. Won't EVER play there
again.
Originally posted by RingtailhunterRTh. Learning from a specific position? But how useful is that? Once out of the opening it is a sheer fluke that any learned position will ever re-occur.
Yep there are alot of settings to tinker with, games to analyze positions to crunch. I can load a position into shredder and have it play another UCI engine in an engine match switching sides ten games or so. Shredder may lose the first game maybe the second but not any after that from either side.
I aggree that they are limited now but that will change real soon.
No1. Thankfully my ability to recognise engines dwarfs my ability to recognise sarcasm.
Originally posted by RingtailhunterYes I've been around plenty, thanks. I'm also well aware of the 'problem' and my above comments stand - allowing engine use would increase engine use in the human arena. I recently resigned my two games against Trackhead - before he was kicked sadly. Would he have 'owned up' if RHP had a computer only section? I think not.
I don't know if you have been around lately but engines are already playing at this site...like it or not.
RTh
Originally posted by GatecrasherIt is useful when it plays another engine. It may discard lines that may give its opponent a long term upperhand. Most engines play the best move for the position every time, the newer engines evaluate a little more down the road.
RTh. Learning from a specific position? But how useful is that? Once out of the opening it is a sheer fluke that any learned position will ever re-occur.
No1. Thankfully my ability to recognise engines dwarfs my ability to recognise sarcasm.
Standard openings are just what they are standard. It is how the middle game is approached that is important.
The new engines look at it's analysis much the way a human does and say why did I lose? what could I have played better next time?.....notes it and changes.
Originally posted by derek9037OK...since right now at RHP engine use is forbidden, but as it happens engines are still here. If engines were allowed to play how can you project that it would be more rampent? You are projecting an unrealistic fear as fact. You may be right, you may be wrong, but you cant know until a future time.
Yes I've been around plenty, thanks. I'm also well aware of the 'problem' and my above comments stand - allowing engine use would increase engine use in the human arena. I recently resigned my two games against Trackhead - before he was kicked sadly. Would he have 'owned up' if RHP had a computer only section? I think not.
I would have resigned any game against trackhead because I had run quite a few of his games already.
RTh
Originally posted by RingtailhunterIt was a while before I felt sure, but as the games were in progress I too looked up a good few of his old games against other opponents. But to be honest I disliked him immensely anyway. It is annoying when they are clan games though, as I feel I am letting my team down.
I would have resigned any game against trackhead because I had run quite a few of his games already.
RTh
the idea was to allow engine using for those willing and tag all others who would be caught using an engine. thus, all those who are caught now would be caught then, and some additional players might even own up.
plus there would be a venue for man-machine experimentation for those who are interested in it. as I pop up FICS now, there seems to be around 1/5 of invitations from registered engine accounts. and people seem to take up on them at least as willingly as on human invitations. so people really are interested in playing against them. I don't see any reason why people would not want to play against cyborgs as well, if there would not be deceiving.
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Originally posted by wormwoodand one in five of the top 20 here have also been removed/are being removed for engine use.There may be more to go? do the mods tell us who they have investigated and have found to be clean?
the idea was to allow engine using for those willing [b]and tag all others who would be caught using an engine. thus, all those who are caught now would be caught then, and some additional players might even own up.
plus there would be a venue for man-machine experimentation for those who are interested in it. as I pop up FICS now, there seems ...[text shortened]... ason why people would not want to play against cyborgs as well, if there would not be deceiving.[/b]
Originally posted by flexmoreTrackhead was a cheat? So I was right all along! I can recognise an engine user from miles away just by a players style. Ha! im always right!😏
the sports people face the same problem as the online chess community ...
engines and drugs ....
there are the same problems ...
i am sure we will find the same solutions in the short term (banning those caught with any solid evidence) ...
and: the same long term solutions (separating users from non-users), and allowing users an arena in which ...[text shortened]... banned from both groups for some time - then forced into the users group.
what do you think?
Originally posted by peterhNo, and I personally like it that way, as it then becomes some kind of a deterrent - you never know when they'll knock on who's door next.
and one in five of the top 20 here have also been removed/are being removed for engine use.There may be more to go? do the mods tell us who they have investigated and have found to be clean?
If you don't use an engine, you have nothing to worry about.
The above is the reason I would NOT like to see engines ever accepted here.
Originally posted by derek9037It is no deterrent.
No, and I personally like it that way, as it then becomes some kind of a deterrent - you never know when they'll knock on who's door next.
If you don't use an engine, you have nothing to worry about.
The above is the reason I would NOT like to see engines ever accepted here.
The death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent, so is prison, but yet people still commit crimes. Why is that?, because people would not do anything they did not think they could get away with.
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Originally posted by derek9037i agree...its like a random drugs test.....but the percentage of engine users in the top 20/40 players is circa 25% and rising...a worrying statistic
No, and I personally like it that way, as it then becomes some kind of a deterrent - you never know when they'll knock on who's door next.
If you don't use an engine, you have nothing to worry about.
The above is the reason I would NOT like to see engines ever accepted here.