Vacationers who move while their flag is up

Originally posted by eyeqpc
Its exactly the way I treat the vacation flag now, pointless. So I make sure I have no games when a vacation is coming up, excellent time-management is my middle name.

You're an example to us all!

I find it impossible to do, with some games lasting many months and in tournaments in particular where you have no idea when the second round games are going to start.

Originally posted by colleman
You're an example to us all!

I find it impossible to do, with some games lasting many months and in tournaments in particular where you have no idea when the second round games are going to start.

I have tried to argue what I think is the best solution for this a number of times and I am hoping that one day it will get enough support to convince the powers that be.

This is my theory (that belongs to me...)

The vacation flag should prevent time outs, it should stop all time out / banks and it should also prevent the player from moving at all whilst it's on.

However, to prevent abuse, the flag should be restricted. I suggest either that it can only be turned on once a month, or that the flag has a 30 day life, like an extended time bank, once you've left it on for 30 days a year that's it.

This would allow players acceptable restbite during holiday / sickness or whatever but, just as importantly, it would stop it from being abused.

Now I can't say fairer than that and that is my theory (that belongs to me etc...) 😛

All I can say is until this solution is implemented then just forget the vacation flag as you can't rely on it to save you. Anyone who thinks they might need time out from their games go to 'My Settings' / 'My Challenge Settings' and stick in a 28 day time bank and don't enter any tournaments a month before the holiday season.

There is some seriously odd thinking going on in here!

I just had the vacation flag on for 5 days (although I told people I'd be away for 7-8 days, because I wasn't sure). I didn't make any moves in that time. But if I HAD been fortunate enough to get some computer access while I was away, why on earth does anyone think it would have been wrong to move?

Someone who happens to be able to move during vacation is still on vacation, they just got lucky.

Taking the flag off for a move would have been almost completely pointless. I would have had to put it back on again 5-10 minutes later, meaning that unless my opponents happened to be logged on during that short period they would have no idea I ever removed it. 10 minutes later the little green dot next to my name would have disappeared as well.

The vacation flag is meant to be for INFORMATION. It doesn't affect the mechanics of this site in any way.

If you think someone is abusing the vacation flag, question them on it. Or look at their game list and see if they are moving a lot. But frankly I don't know what people think the problem is - if they are in fact moving fairly regularly, then:

1. You're getting your game, and
2. You can't time them out!

Originally posted by Exy
...The vacation flag should prevent time outs, it should stop all time out / banks and it should also prevent the player from moving at all whilst it's on.

However, to prevent abuse, the flag should be restricted. I suggest either that it can only be turned on once a month, or that the flag has a 30 day life, like an extended time bank, once you've left it ...[text shortened]... iday / sickness or whatever but, just as importantly, it would stop it from being abused.

...

In your opinion.

Again, though, I would have to refer you to one of the many threads in which this has already been debated, where the flaws in your proposal have been pointed out.

In my opinion, a vacation flag / system that stops clocks is far *more* abusable than one that does not. It also has the strength to cause no end of problems with tournament matches.

I just don't see that the level of any problem with the current system is worth it being changed. This would be a clear case where the minority are abusing the current system and changing it could harm the majority.

But still the arguments go on about time outs. Something has to give, either the vacation flag is made meaningful or it's pointless and should be done away with to prevent argument.

People will then realise what the time bank system is for and learn to use it to incorporate their time away from the site.

Originally posted by orfeo
There is some seriously odd thinking going on in here!

I just had the vacation flag on for 5 days (although I told people I'd be away for 7-8 days, because I wasn't sure). I didn't make any moves in that time. But if I HAD been fortunate enough to get some computer access while I was away, why on earth does anyone think it would have been wrong to move? ...[text shortened]... oving fairly regularly, then:

1. You're getting your game, and
2. You can't time them out!

You have obviously never had anyone abuse the vacation flag against you or you might feel completely differently about this.

Exy, I still don't understand what the 'abuse' is. The timeout clock is not stopped. If you decide that someone is dishonestly using the vacation flag, there is nothing to prevent you from claiming a win.

The worst they can do is complain they were being honest and that you've been impolite. End result for you is 1 person who probably won't play you again, but is that such a problem on a site like this one?

Anything that stopped the timeout clock would be far MORE open to abuse - basically it would provide free thinking time and you would not be able to do a thing about it. Even if it was made so that people could not even look at their game while 'on vacation', they could just note the position of the pieces immediately before setting the flag.

The moment any kind of time limit was set on use of the flag, there would be no end to the complaints about RHP unduly trying to dictate use of time when the ability to play little bits and pieces of games is one of the selling points. I went to the UK for 2 months (a lot more than your 30 days suggestion) on holiday once, and I went earlier than I originally planned so that even if I HAD tried to avoid having games going at that time there would have been difficulties. I sighted computers rarely and keeping in touch with loved ones back home would have been a higher priority than chess if I had been involved in RHP back then. Internet cafes are expensive while you sit and think about a tricky move!

Plus you can't control how often the other person moves, one of my current games is taking much longer than the others for that reason.

Point being, your 'solution' will only create different problems. Solution to your CURRENT problem is, if you suspect someone of being an unfair so-and-so you can end the game and collect the win. You just have to have the guts to do it.

Look if you just read the thread from the top you wouldn't be confused.

Sundown timed someone out cos he was moving whilst the vacation flag was on. The fact that Sundown timed him out already confirms that the time bank was exhausted. What some people have done to avoid being claimed against and losing is put on the vacation flag in the hope that good natured opponents will asume they are on holiday and respect their flag. If that person then continues to move then it looks suspicious.

All I did was agree with Sundown's decision and then went on later to explain that this used to happen to me so often that now I claim all time outs as soon as the skull appears, vacation flag or not. The disucssion then turned to whether or not this system can be improved and I made a suggestion that I have in similar discussions.

What I'm suggested would not be abused, in my opinion. I would enforce the rule that only allows you to turn you vacation flag on and off once per month and that while the flag is on your are unable to move in any game. I don't think anyone would waste the opportunity to put their flag on because they will probably need it for real at some point and the fact that putting it on stops them moving full stop is even more of a deterant.

This system would allow people to have genuine holiday without the fear of being timed out because the vacation flag would stop the timebank only. It would also heavily deter the people who turn their flag on whenever they exhaust their timebank and continue moving in their games.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

Originally posted by Exy
I hope that clears up your confusion.

Orfeo is not confused. He/She understands how the present system cannot really be "abused" in anything but a trivial way, whereas a system that actually stopped the clocks could be.

I also have something to say about respecting a holiday flag (which i always do, except if there is a good reason not to)...
I have two games against an opponent which i think is equal to me. He put his flag up. Since i trust him being honest, i respected his flag. Then suddenly, his rating started to fall down rapidly (from 1500+ to 1200-). It seemed I was the only one respecting his flag. He got timed out at least 10 games.
Not that i really care about my rating (although i prefer a high one over a low one), but this way it isn't very rewarding being honest and respecting your opponents flag.

Bart

Originally posted by Exy
What I'm suggested would not be abused, in my opinion. I would enforce the rule that only allows you to turn you vacation flag on and off once per month and that while the flag is on your are unable to move in any game. I don't think anyon ...[text shortened]... it on stops them moving full stop is even more of a deterant.

Chess is not about being able to move. It's about being able to think between moves. That's why I say anything that stops the clock/stops you moving really doesn't achieve your aim.

Originally posted by sundown316
Possibly,tho I think it's just a cheap way to get some free thinking time. Well,nothing is free.

Did you brain shut down while waiting for your opponent to move?

Did the clock stop ticking when the vacation flag went up?

You're going to whine because your opponent MOVED, not because he didn't?!?

I don't know about you, but when I go on vacation, it usually involves travel. I can't be certain that I'll have access to the Internet. If you want to claim a timeout, that's up to you. But moving while on vacation is perfectly fine and within the rules, and the right thing to do. Maybe your problem is you were juiced up to claim the timeout and your opponent moved before you got a chance, resetting his timeout clock for another few days. WELL BOO HOO! 🙁

The reason a person can move without taking down their flag is because of over zealous players who immediately timeout players when they take their flag down for 10 mins.

The WHOLE POINT of the vacation flag is a courtesy to your opponent. It tells him you may be a little slow between moves because your going to be out of town. If your opponent moves, you should be HAPPY. If he doesn't, and the clock runs out, you can still claim the time out. That's up to you.

I look at it this way. When you're driving and someone signals a lane change ahead of you, you are either going to be a jerk and speed up, or you're going to be courteous and let them over, knowing that next time it may be you that needs to change lanes. The signal is like the vacation flag. Your opponent does not need to use it. It's only a courtesy to you.

So which are you going to be, the jerk, or the mensch.

Coletti, when I subscribe I'm coming back here to give you a rec! Couldn't have said it better - see above where I already tried.

Originally posted by sundown316
I just timed one of them out. Not because I needed,or wanted,the win,but I consider what they do to be unethical. Either you're on vacation with no access to a computer,or you're not.

We're all talking at cross purposes and about different scenarios. I would be curious to know, Sundown, just how long a time bank the game in question (the original question) had?

Originally posted by orfeo
Coletti, when I subscribe I'm coming back here to give you a rec! Couldn't have said it better - see above where I already tried.

You covered it quite well. I didn't read your post until after I posted. I got irritated when I started on the first page and wrote my response. I had to tone it down some so not to be overly harsh. Thankfully, Russ does not let himself get pushed around by every complaint. (All he really needs to do is follow my advice. 😉 )

What is the saying about an ounce of prevention. I seems the "solutions" suggested would be a pound of prevention when we already have the ounce of cure at hand.

People who abuse their vacation flags (however much I doubt it happens) can be dealt with exactly as the open poster did it. Take the win. Personally, I am reluctant to do that. And I certainly wouldn't if they took 5 or 6 days on a on a 3 day timeout game. At least the game is moving, albeit slowly. So I don't see the problem. Give them the benefit of the doubt, or take you win, either way is fair by the rules.