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General Forum

  1. Joined
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    09 Apr '13 05:39
    I was too young in 1970 to pay much attention to the trial of the Manson “family” murderers. But fifteen years later I came across prosecutor Bugliosi’s book ‘Helter Skelter,’ and found it fascinating. YouTube has a number of items on the murders, including this:

    YouTube

    At 6:25 in the video, notice that a newspaper page had three abutting articles about crimes (two sets of murders one day apart, and a car-theft ring) and the Manson family was involved in all three!

    One member of the Manson family, Lynette Fromme, went to prison a few years later for pointing a loaded handgun at President Ford.

    There is a fringe theory that Manson family member Bruce Davis is the Zodiac killer:

    YouTube

    I didn’t know until I saw this today at YouTube that Shorty Shea’s body was found:

    YouTube

    Are these murders known much outside the USA? Or inside the USA among people under 30 years of age?
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    09 Apr '13 12:42
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    I was too young in 1970 to pay much attention to the trial of the Manson “family” murderers. But fifteen years later I came across prosecutor Bugliosi’s book ‘Helter Skelter,’ and found it fascinating. YouTube has a number of items on the murders, including this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRYLzqoekMg

    At 6:25 in the video, notice that a newsp ...[text shortened]... these murders known much outside the USA? Or inside the USA among people under 30 years of age?
    A friend and I had driven to Vancouver from Montreal, to visit his girlfriend who was going to UBC, around the time of the murders. We had to be back in Montreal for the day after labour day. We left on the friday. While driving through Saskatchewan late at night we were pulled over by a police cruiser (RCMP). When the policemen approached from both sides of the car they seemed very tentative. Well it turned out that they were rumors that the Tate Killers were in Canada and driving a stolen car just like ours. Needless to say it wasn't us.
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    09 Apr '13 13:11
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II

    Are these murders known much outside the USA? Or inside the USA among people under 30 years of age?
    In Germany there was a bit on this on the papers, but I don't think that many people today have a clear recollection of the facts.
  4. Joined
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    09 Apr '13 13:26
    We read a lot about Charles Manson and the murder of Sharon Tate - Roman Polanski was a celebrity and the murder was horrible, incomprehensible and so evil.
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    09 Apr '13 14:012 edits
    Originally posted by Great Big Stees
    Well it turned out that they were rumors that the Tate Killers were in Canada and driving a stolen car just like ours.
    They may have thought you could be drug dealer Pic Dawson. The letters PIG written in blood on the door of the Tate house were first thought to be PIC, since he had made threats against an occupant of that house.


    I see from the other comments here that this was an international news story.

    At this link the year before the murders the Beach Boys sing a song written by Charles Manson:

    http://xdell.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html
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    09 Apr '13 14:51
    In 1977 I was stationed at Travis AFB in California. Each morning as I drove from my apartment to the base I passed the prison where Charlie was (Sirhan Sirhan too iirc). Every night my wife demanded I double-check the door locks just in case Charlie got out.
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    09 Apr '13 15:04
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Are these murders known much outside the USA? Or inside the USA among people under 30 years of age?
    Were the Manson killings more or less grotesque than the killings of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians - who knows how many? - in south east Asia in [let's say] 1970? How does one measure "grotesque"?
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    09 Apr '13 15:10
    Originally posted by FMF
    Were the Manson killings more or less grotesque than the killings of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians - who knows how many? - in south east Asia in [let's say] 1970? How does one measure "grotesque"?
    You can't always compare whether it's more or less. Sometimes when there is only one or a few victims, it's easier to identify and sympathise. You see a face, perhaps get to know the person and it gets very close.
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    09 Apr '13 15:192 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Were the Manson killings more or less grotesque than the killings of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians - who knows how many? - in south east Asia?
    Certainly a shrapnel wound incurred by someone in southeast Asia at that time was just as bloody and painful. But as lolof points out, it was easy for people to put a face to the victims of Manson. As websites and books point out, those killings have ties to some famous names such as Polanski, Sinatra, the Beach Boys, Doris Day and then there's the Folgers coffee fortune.

    I still remember my mother's reaction to the deaths of three astronauts in the Apollo capsule fire--yet on that same day many more than three would have died in the Vietnam war. Again, a matter of being able to put a face on the death.
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    09 Apr '13 15:44
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Certainly a shrapnel wound incurred by someone in southeast Asia at that time was just as bloody and painful. But as lolof points out, it was easy for people to put a face to the victims of Manson. As websites and books point out, those killings have ties to some famous names such as Polanski, Sinatra, the Beach Boys, Doris Day and then there's the Fol ...[text shortened]... would have died in the Vietnam war. Again, a matter of being able to put a face on the death.
    This was an accident and tragedy in Italy in the early 80's with a boy who fell down a deep well and couldn't be rescued. The tragedy was followed by the world press, and until this day I have never again experienced what I felt for this boy and his mother. I was devastated and I sent a telegram to her and it all still makes me feel sad.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Rampi
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    09 Apr '13 15:46
    Originally posted by lolof
    You can't always compare whether it's more or less. Sometimes when there is only one or a few victims, it's easier to identify and sympathise. You see a face, perhaps get to know the person and it gets very close.
    That sounds like an awful psychological trap for you to fall into. How can you preserve your humanity if you can identify with only one or a few victims, but you do not identify with hundreds of thousands or millions of innocents slaughtered?
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    09 Apr '13 15:49
    Originally posted by FMF
    That sounds like an awful psychological trap for you to fall into. How can you preserve your humanity if you can identify with only one or a few victims, but you do not identify with hundreds of thousands or millions of innocents slaughtered?
    Well, I wouldn't feel a thousand times more for a thousand people than I do for one single person - I don't know how else to explain.
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    09 Apr '13 15:50
    Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
    Certainly a shrapnel wound incurred by someone in southeast Asia at that time was just as bloody and painful. But as lolof points out, it was easy for people to put a face to the victims of Manson. As websites and books point out, those killings have ties to some famous names such as Polanski, Sinatra, the Beach Boys, Doris Day and then there's the Folgers coffee fortune.
    Now that you have had the chance to take stock and be more proportionate - 40 years down the road - why are you still fascinated by "killings [that] have ties to some famous names such as Polanski, Sinatra, the Beach Boys, Doris Day and [...] the Folgers coffee fortune." Is it because Doris Day sold more records than any Cambodian farmer I might be able to name?
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Apr '13 15:51
    Originally posted by lolof
    Well, I wouldn't feel a thousand times more for a thousand people than I do for one single person - I don't know how else to explain.
    Do you not resent being rendered so numb by the media and by a selective kind of "history"? Don't you ever feel like grabbing your humanity back from those who have compromised it?
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    09 Apr '13 16:18
    Originally posted by FMF
    Do you not resent being rendered so numb by the media and by a selective kind of "history"? Don't you ever feel like grabbing your humanity back from those who have compromised it?
    Is it not human nature to "feel more" for a family member, neighbour, or someone you have, if only through the medias, a connection with than someone you know not?
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