Jesus vs. God

I am asking this question based on my replies to a thread created by 'sonship' called: The Jealousy of God. In my posts to that thread I had stated that God stated in the 1st Commandment that He wanted us to worship Him only.....otherwise He would be jealous.....something close to that.....I am paraphrasing.

I am not concerned at this point with Buddah, Mohammed, Rah, or any other gods that may compete with the God in the Bible.....I am focusing on Jesus.

Why do Christians believe that Jesus is God? That is my question. 'sonship' has suggested that I just confess my sins, and all will be fine and understood. Sins therefore are the problem. I disagree.

The Old Testament never says that God Himself will become human and die for us.....it is NOT there. I am okay with God deciding to send His son Jesus to die for us......and Jesus deserves His divine credit for that.....but, when did it go from that to Jesus being God? I am beginning to think that 1900 years ago or so, MAN decided to make Jesus as God, because Jesus NEVER said that He himself is God.

Again, the reason for this question is because if God wants our complete devotion and worship......and we seem to be giving ALL of it to Jesus....I want to know why? If we are wrong about the Trinity, then we are breaking the 1st Commandment by worshiping Jesus, and wearing the 'cross' around our necks in complete violation.

If you reply to this, please don't just tell me to 'believe it', or to just merely confess my sins, and all will be fine. If you believe that Jesus is God...........WHY?

You had several responses to this very same question in the "jealous" thread and pretty much ignored every piece of information given you. I'm beginning to think you are not really looking for answers, but a reinforcement of your premise to help you stop fretting about it.

Nowhere in the gospels , to my knowledge, does Jesus claim he is God. He calls God his Father and claims to be the Son of Man. Now isn't that interesting !

Originally posted by moonbus
Nowhere in the gospels , to my knowledge, does Jesus claim he is God. He calls God his Father and claims to be the Son of Man. Now isn't that interesting !

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

Before Abraham was, I AM

I and the Father are ONE

Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins

Why did the religious educated Pharisees want to stone him?
“For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God”
(John 10:33, NASB).

Speaking of his resurrection and saying that HE would raise himself up, not a separate God.
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body”
(John 2:19, 21, KJV).

Originally posted by moonbus
Nowhere in the gospels , to my knowledge, does Jesus claim he is God. He calls God his Father and claims to be the Son of Man. Now isn't that interesting !

Exactly. Divegeester just wants us to believe simply because he does.....but, really, Jesus NEVER claims to be God. And as far as I am concerned, God should be pissed off that we worship Jesus as Him. I have asked for proof that Jesus is God, and I am certain that I will never get it. But......regarding the 1st Commandment, God should be jealous of his own son, because every Christian is treating Jesus as God.

Originally posted by chaney3
Exactly. Divegeester just wants us to believe simply because he does.....but, really, Jesus NEVER claims to be God. And as far as I am concerned, God should be pissed off that we worship Jesus as Him. I have asked for proof that Jesus is God, and I am certain that I will never get it. But......regarding the 1st Commandment, God should be jealous of his own son, because every Christian is treating Jesus as God.

Why don't you respond to the scriptures I'm giving you? And instead of pretending you are interested in gaining more information be more forthright about what you believe and why.

Clearly it is you who is getting pissed off.

Originally posted by divegeester
Why don't you respond to the scriptures I'm giving you? And instead of pretending you are interested in gaining more information be more forthright about what you believe and why.

Clearly it is you who is getting pissed off.

Jesus never claimed to be God. End of story. Humans made that up. Why do you worship Jesus as God???? There is no evidence of that. You have NO scriptures to back up your claim.....and I am getting insulted at your arrogance. Do YOU really know who Jesus is?? If you do.....write a book and make millions.

Originally posted by chaney3
Jesus never claimed to be God. End of story. Humans made that up. Why do you worship Jesus as God???? There is no evidence of that. You have NO scriptures to back up your claim.....and I am getting insulted at your arrogance. Do YOU really know who Jesus is?? If you do.....write a book and make millions.

I gave you OT and NT scriptures (with a rational) in the "Jealous" thread which you completely ignored, and I've now given you ample scriptures in this thread to at least allow you to consider your position on this.

You said in your first post that you read the forums but never post; well It seems you are completely reversing that trend now by posting and never reading.

Chaney3, here is what I posted in the other thread, so you can ignore it here too:

You will find several differing viewpoints in this forum and a lot of heated debate over them. Don't let the heated debate put you off! Listen to all the views and make up your own mind until more insight becomes available to you.

I am an independent (non denominational) Christian who is open minded about many things but am convinced about the deity of Jesus Christ according to a holistic view of scripture.

There are a number of pieces to consider:
- Can God be a man and still be God?
- Is scripture consistent about the Godhead?
- Is a multi-person Godhead described in scripture and is it in keeping with the entirety of scripture?

Everywhere throughout the Old Testament it says:
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one

The bible never once mentions 3 in 1 or 1 in 3, or indeed the words "trinity", "triune" nor does it ever say "God the Son", "the eternal Son", "God the Holy Spirit"

However it does say many times "God is ONE"

Regarding the deity of Christ...

Colossians 2:8-10
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...

And...
Isaiah 9: 6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So the OT confirms that the ONE God will be revealed as the child and that he will bear ALL the titles of God. Councillor (spirit), Mighty God (authority and power), Father (who Jesus prayed to), prince of peace.

Furthermore looks at Jesus commands to his disciples regarding his NAME:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name [SINGULAR] of the Father and [SAME NAME] the Son and [SAME NAME] the Holy Spirit...
So what did the disciples do? The unilaterally baptised everyone in the name of Jesus Christ. NEVER in the name of "the father the son and the Holy Spirit. NEVER. They new exactly what he was saying.

Jesus proclaimed himself to be the "image of the invisible God and the exact representation of his being" EXACT. The fullness of the Godhead in a human being. That's why they killed him.

The same God is manifested in a number of ways, but it is always the ONE and same God. There is only ONE God and he "will not give his glory to another" read Isaiah again he is absolutely adamant that God is ONE, he is the saviour himself and besides him there is no other.

Originally posted by chaney3
Jesus never claimed to be God. End of story. Humans made that up.

Actually humans made up everything in the Bible including the bits about what Jesus said. End of story.
What were Paul's views on the matter? If you are going to claim that Paul could be wrong, then you should equally assume that the gospels could be wrong as they were written much later and by anonymous writers. If you assume the gospels are accurate then you should also take Paul's writings seriously.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually humans made up everything in the Bible including the bits about what Jesus said. End of story.
What were Paul's views on the matter? If you are going to claim that Paul could be wrong, then you should equally assume that the gospels could be wrong as they were written much later and by anonymous writers. If you assume the gospels are accurate then you should also take Paul's writings seriously.

After reading the book of numbers and first Chronicles and second Chronicles it's kind of hard to believe that it was all made up. With the history of all those people in the bloodline.

Originally posted by chaney3
Jesus never claimed to be God. End of story. Humans made that up. Why do you worship Jesus as God???? There is no evidence of that. You have NO scriptures to back up your claim.....and I am getting insulted at your arrogance. Do YOU really know who Jesus is?? If you do.....write a book and make millions.

You are dealing with an irrational belief. You are absolutely correct, there is not a single iota of scripture where Jesus claims that he is God and like you say, someone simply made it up. The idea comes from the exegesis of scriptures which on the surface seem to support that idea, for example Isaiah 9:6 states that Jesus is an eternal father, so those who believe that Jesus is God use this to support their stance. The text of course does not say that Jesus is God, it says that he is an eternal father.

It is not entirely the fault of the deluded nominal Christian like divesgeester or sonship. They have been duped by thoroughly corrupt translation as well. For example John 1:1 where the English reads that 'the word was God'. When one actually examines the Greek text it becomes apparent that what the text is actually saying is that 'The word is divine', or has a Godly quality, we know this because the Greek uses a predicate noun.

No matter how much rationality you attempt to utilise or reason with people who believe that Jesus is God they very often dont want to change their perspective and so when you challenge them as you have done here you see the result, you get a completely irrational and emotive response, devoid in many cases of both substance and reason.

Originally posted by RBHILL
After reading the book of numbers and first Chronicles and second Chronicles it's kind of hard to believe that it was all made up. With the history of all those people in the bloodline.

Of course not every single fact in the Bible is made up. Jerusalem is, and was, a real place. Even some of the events/people in Numbers and Chronicles were real events/people. Nevertheless, the majority of the Bible is made up.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course not every single fact in the Bible is made up. Jerusalem is, and was, a real place. Even some of the events/people in Numbers and Chronicles were real events/people. Nevertheless, the majority of the Bible is made up.

I think your excuses is because of all that killing that went on. So what if the Jews eradicated whole nations who sacrificed babies to moloch! They had over 400 years to repent and turn from their wicked ways and they would've lived.

Originally posted by RBHILL
I think your excuses is because of all that killing that went on.

I made no excuses. I just stated the facts as I see them - and it had nothing to do with the Jews bad behavior.

So what if the Jews eradicated whole nations who sacrificed babies to moloch! They had over 400 years to repent and turn from their wicked ways and they would've lived.
Now that, is what we call 'excuses'.