Jesus vs. God

Originally posted by Dasa
That,s because most people are not sincere and they are attached to meat eating which means cruelty and killing animals.

I support you in your efforts to be a vegetarian and to choose that lifestyle approach. If you are a campaigner against industrialized livestock farming and meat production carried out in appalling conditions, then I support you in those efforts. But your claims that you are engaged in these things because a God figure has revealed him/herself to you are pretty much meaningless to people outside your religion and to non-vegetarians.

chaney3's challenge -

The Old Testament never says that God Himself will become human and die for us.....it is NOT there.

It is there in Zechariah 12:10.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they will look upon Me whom they have pierced and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zech. 12:10)

1.) Who is the speaker? The speaker is Jehovah God - (verses 1, 2 , 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 )

2.) Who will be pierced? Jehovah God is the one pierced - " ... and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; ..."

3.) If anyone wants to argue that this "Me" does not refer to Jesus Christ, then I would point out that under inspiration John definitely applied reference to that passage to Jesus Christ in His second coming, recognized as the One pierced and wailed over by the Jewish tribes of the land of Israel:

" Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes. amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8)

Originally posted by sonship
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8) [/quote][/b]

There you go robbie, Jesus calling himself the beginning and the end, and the "ALMIGHTY". I'm referring to your repeated claims that Jesus is A MIGHTY god alongside ALMIGHTY Jehovah.

Originally posted by sonship
chaney3's challenge -

The Old Testament never says that God Himself will become human and die for us.....it is NOT there.

It [b] is there in Zechariah 12:10.

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplications; and they will lo ...[text shortened]... the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8)

[/b]

This is very, very compelling!!!! Basically, what that verse is saying is that God will be pierced.....and they will mourn Jesus.....implying that both are the same?? The fact that it's in the Old Testament is what is fascinating to me. A very good verse for me to read. Another step toward progress.

P.S. In the other thread you posted something about the jealousy of God.....meaning that YOU don't believe that God gets jealous when Jesus gets worship and praise, and vice versa. And that both God and Jesus do NOT get upset when the Holy Spirit gets some attention. I have to laugh because I think that is the crux of my current dilemma. My lack of understanding regarding the Trinity has created barriers for my desire to give one of the 3 any worship or praise at any given time.

Very fascinating to read Zechariah 12:10..........thanks.

Added thought: Upon reflection of this verse: The fact that Jesus was 'pierced' on the cross (I believe by a Roman soldier, to verify that Jesus was dead), is what makes this remarkable. If Jesus was NOT pierced on the cross, then this verse would not mean too much. Coincidence??

Originally posted by chaney3
This is very, very compelling!!!! Basically, what that verse is saying is that God will be pierced.....and they will mourn Jesus.....implying that both are the same?? The fact that it's in the Old Testament is what is fascinating to me. A very good verse for me to read. Another step toward progress.

P.S. In the other thread you posted something about ...[text shortened]... If Jesus was NOT pierced on the cross, then this verse would not mean too much. Coincidence??

Despite your desire to understand the Godhead and the deity of Christ, you seem to be coming from the point of view that the trinity doctrine is correct. It isn't; it is error and it is often (in my experience) what drives a lot of the confusion amoung Christians.

If a simple graphic helps explain it then instead of thinking of the godhead as a Venn diagram, think of it as concentric circles. I.e. Layers, revelations, dimensions of exactly the same ONE entity.

Originally posted by divegeester
Despite your desire to understand the Godhead and the deity of Christ, you seem to be coming from the point of view that the trinity doctrine is correct. It isn't; it is error and it is often (in my experience) what drives a lot of the confusion amoung Christians.

If a simple graphic helps explain it then instead of thinking of the godhead as a Venn ...[text shortened]... f it as concentric circles. I.e. Layers, revelations, dimensions of exactly the same ONE entity.

Yes, I have a desire to understand. I have never said that I think the trinity doctrine is correct......I have always maintained an attitude of confusion. I believe I remember reading that you are a Christian? Non-denomination?

If you have answered this question, forgive me, but I will ask again. As a Christian....how do YOU view God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit? When you say the same ONE entity.....I am not sure what you mean.

Originally posted by chaney3
Yes, I have a desire to understand. I have never said that I think the trinity doctrine is correct......I have always maintained an attitude of confusion. I believe I remember reading that you are a Christian? Non-denomination?

If you have answered this question, forgive me, but I will ask again. As a Christian....how do YOU view God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit? When you say the same ONE entity.....I am not sure what you mean.

I have answered a few times and chastised you when you ignored me. However if you go to my profile, click on forum posts and look back over the last 3 - 4 pages you will find all my replies to you.

Edit/: you are more than entitled to ignore me by the way, I mention it only because I was responding directly to your questions. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
I have answered a few times and chastised you when you ignored me. However if you go to my profile, click on forum posts and look back over the last 3 - 4 pages you will find all my replies to you.

Edit/: you are more than entitled to ignore me by the way, I mention it only because I was responding directly to your questions. 🙂

I don't appreciate the 'chastising' by the way. I think that we are doing good today and hope we can get past this. I have reviewed about 5 pages of your forum posts via your profile and can only find very brief discussions regarding the term 'Godhead'. With that said, I would appreciate it if you reply to this, and not just 'chastise' me, lol. 🙂

Is there a difference between Godhead and the Trinity?? If so, I would like to be educated. Maybe you have answered this in previous posts, but I cannot find them. At this point, I am past being concerned about what anybody has to say about my posts or questions. I am trying to learn.

Originally posted by chaney3
I don't appreciate the 'chastising' by the way. I think that we are doing good today and hope we can get past this. I have reviewed about 5 pages of your forum posts via your profile and can only find very brief discussions regarding the term 'Godhead'. With that said, I would appreciate it if you reply to this, and not just 'chastise' me, lol. 🙂

Is t ...[text shortened]... eing concerned about what anybody has to say about my posts or questions. I am trying to learn.

"Godhead" is a term describing the fullness, identity and personage of God. trinity is one way of explaining how this God can be seen in several different forms (father, son, Holy Ghost for example). The issue is that 3 personas in 1 is still fundamentally 3. God is one entity revealed in multiple manifestations. The scriptures and text I posted to you when you first started posting explain my view and rational on this.

At this point, I am past being concerned about what anybody has to say about my posts or questions. I am trying to learn.

I think Dive is a good person for you to learn from, when it comes to a credible Christianity. (And i say that as an atheist). Without his rational and ethical understanding of God and biblical interpretation, the fundamental and extreme views of Hinds would consume us all.

Just don't ignore him or say he's destined for hell.

😉

Originally posted by chaney3
This is very, very compelling!!!! Basically, what that verse is saying is that God will be pierced.....and they will mourn Jesus.....implying that both are the same?? The fact that it's in the Old Testament is what is fascinating to me. A very good verse for me to read. Another step toward progress.

P.S. In the other thread you posted something about ...[text shortened]... If Jesus was NOT pierced on the cross, then this verse would not mean too much. Coincidence??

If you're truly interested in the meaning of OT verses, then you should also take the time to read what Jews have to say about them before you decide what to think about them. For example, the following link takes you to an analysis of Zechariah 12:10 by a Rabbi:
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/scriptural-studies/analysis-of-zechariah-1210/

Quite often Christians like Sonship take a verse or two and read things into them without considering the full context and without understanding how some NT writers had taken liberties with some verses (including Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:37) in order to bend them to fit their theology.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you're truly interested in the meaning of OT verses, then you should also take the time to read what Jews have to say about them before you decide what to think about them. For example, the following link takes you to an analysis of Zechariah 12:10 by a Rabbi:
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/scriptural-studi ...[text shortened]... Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:37) in order to bend them to fit their theology.

Hope this helps.

Good point .. I was about to make a similar comment. Anyway here is the Jewish Publication Society's translation. The RSV gives a similar version of the verse:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Basically the correct translation makes a clear distinction between God whom the Jews looked up to and to Christ whom they pierced. Two different entities .. separate and distinct.

Originally posted by divegeester

Despite your desire to understand the Godhead and the deity of Christ, you seem to be coming from the point of view that the trinity doctrine is correct. It isn't; it is error and it is often (in my experience) what drives a lot of the confusion amoung Christians.

It never seems clear to me what you mean by "the trinity doctrine". I am not sure if you are erecting a strawman argument and perhaps claiming that Tri-theism is what you designate as the erroneous "trinity doctrine".

I am not sure if you are referring to three Gods as the erroneous "trinity doctrine". In your next reply to me why don't you be more specific. And I don't mean give me a long diatribe about the history of strife and arguments over the nature of God. I simply mean what in your mind is "the trinity doctrine." That is all I ask.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

If you're truly interested in the meaning of OT verses, then you should also take the time to read what Jews have to say about them before you decide what to think about them.

Since you wish to nullify the help cheney3 received I feel obligated to defend the help I gave him.

First off - the Apostle John was a Jew, thankyou.
The first disciples of Jesus were all JEWS.
So saying "You need to see what the Jews say about it" needs to take account that Christ's apostles were Jews entering into the "new covenant" which the prophet Jeremiah prophesied would come.

As in the Old Testament so in the New - There were believing Jews and there were unbelieving Jews. There were unbelieving Jews who sought to stone Moses and look for another leader to take them BACK into Egyptian slavery. Just being Jewish did not guarantee that they understood the will of God.

King Saul was a Jew, as was Korah, as was Ahab, as was Absalom, as was even Solomon. This did not prevent them from huge errors in obedience to God's plan or in committing mistakes in the understanding of God.

The reason that the tribes mentioned in Zechariah will mourn for the One pierced is because they TOO recognize that they have been wrong to their own national well-being. But at least they come to repentance.

Fortunately previously disbelieving Jews coming to repentance is a re-occurring event in the Bible.

For example, the following link takes you to an analysis of Zechariah 12:10 by a Rabbi:
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/scriptural-studies/analysis-of-zechariah-1210/

Quite often Christians like Sonship take a verse or two and read things into them without considering the full context and without understanding how some NT writers had taken liberties with some verses (including Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:37) in order to bend them to fit their theology.

I will give attention to the article in another post perhaps. But it seems that the one failing to view the fuller context is yourself.

I did not refer to John 19:37. But since the Romans would not have crucified Jesus had not the Jews demanded so shouting "Crucify, Crucify Him" it is not at all too much to say that the piercing of the Roman nails and the Roman spear was the piercing of God incarnate by the tribes of Israel.

I am sorry that you don't feel to make the arguments yourself but send me off to argue with this link from JewsforJudiasm. But so be it. I'll take a look and maybe go over to the website of JewsforJesus and see what THOSE Jews would answer in reply.

But that probably will not be necessary.
Stay tuned for a reply.

My replies to ThinkofOne's link will be in installments:

The Christian reading of this passage is somewhat problematic. The words “Me” and “Him” makes it quite obvious that the text is speaking of two different subjects. The gospel of John acknowledged this and therefore rendered the passage as, “they shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

It is not as problematic as the rabbi wishes it was.

'Me" is the Speaker who is obviously Yahweh - (Jehovah). The Speaker is God. Since this is before Christ was actually incarnated in history yet "Me" refers to God before He became a man.

"[M]ourn of Him" rather unproblematically refers to the same God who by some future time will be Jesus the Son of God.

While the wording is peculiar, in the full context of even the Old Testament, is it not as "problematic" as suggested.

In fact in the very same book of Zechariah you have God as both the Sender and the one Sent in chapter two. You have in the very same book Jehovah of hosts as the One who sends AND the One who is BEING sent (Zechariah 2:8-11):

"For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. (v.8)

For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be plunder for those who served them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me. (v.9)

Give a ringing shout and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah. (v.10)

And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people, and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)

If you look carefully, you will see that both the one sending and the one being sent are Jehovah of hosts. The Speaker is Jehovah of hosts and He says "and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you."

So God sending God here is much like God speaking of piercing "Me" and mourning for "Him" in chapter 12.