28 Oct 05
LH, Ivanhoe, or anyone:
Do you know of a list of all the historical canons and whatever other documents pertaining
to faith and/or morals that are considered infallible?
I recall that you said the canons of these various councils, but I don't want to have to sift
through ones that are disciplinary and, thus, irrelevant to my study.
Nemesio
28 Oct 05
Originally posted by NemesioOne thing that has always puzzled me is the following.
LH, Ivanhoe, or anyone:
Do you know of a list of [b]all the historical canons and whatever other documents pertaining
to faith and/or morals that are considered infallible?
I recall that you said the canons of these various councils, but I don't want to have to sift
through ones that are disciplinary and, thus, irrelevant to my study.
Nemesio[/b]
Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church *is* infallible on matters of morality, when it speaks ex cathedra.
Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place? Were they overtaken by (and are they still possessed of) a spiritual conviction that they were infallible? But how could/can they know that this conviction itself was/is trustworthy?
Or was/is it just a case of a bunch of sexually abstinent men in pink petticoats getting carried away by their own moral egotism?
28 Oct 05
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeNow, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place?
One thing that has always puzzled me is the following.
Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church *is* infallible on matters of morality, when it speaks ex cathedra.
Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place? Were ...[text shortened]... ch of sexually abstinent men in pink petticoats getting carried away by their own moral egotism?
Because that's what Christ told them ("keys of heaven", "bind and loose" etc.).
28 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerIn all seriousness, can you elaborate on this, or provide a citation
[b]Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place?
Because that's what Christ told them ("keys of heaven", "bind and loose" etc.).[/b]
for it if you don't have time?
Nemesio
28 Oct 05
Originally posted by NemesioYep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
In all seriousness, can you elaborate on this, or provide a citation
for it if you don't have time?
Nemesio
Maybe it's those damned Protestants who are infallible, all this time!
28 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioReposting from the other thread.
LH, Ivanhoe, or anyone:
Do you know of a list of [b]all the historical canons and whatever other documents pertaining
to faith and/or morals that are considered infallible?
I recall that you said the canons of these various councils, but I don't want to have to sift
through ones that are disciplinary and, thus, irrelevant to my study.
Nemesio[/b]
---
All canons and proclamations of the Church considered infallible can be found in Denzinger-Schönmetzer's Enchiridion Symbolorum. Not having used DS myself, I don't know if it contains only the dogmatic extracts of the Councils and Papal Bulls or the full texts.
Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone published a partial, non-exhaustive list of infallible teachings of the Church in 1998, but I haven't seen this list either.
---
One minor point: 'infallibility' is a property of the Church relating to certain teachings (which are 'true'😉. It is meaningless to speak of the documents themselves as being infallible. The teachings are also commonly referred to as being 'infallible' because it is known through the infallibility of the Church.
With respect to the General Councils, it is usually not difficult to tell which teachings are infallible:
(1) It will be a matter of dogma - faith and/or morals
(2) Some kind of 'formula' (e.g. "We believe and proclaim" or "If anyone holds X, let him be anathema" )
Disciplinary canons are those pertaining to Church organisation, pastoral responsibilities of clergy and religious, acts of excommunication etc.
28 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerIs the former in English, German or Latin?
All canons and proclamations of the Church considered infallible can be found in Denzinger-Schönmetzer's Enchiridion Symbolorum. Not having used DS myself, I don't know if it contains only the dogmatic extracts of the Councils and Papal Bulls or the full texts.
Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone published a partial, non-exhaustive list of infallible teachings of the Church in 1998, but I haven't seen this list either.
Do you have a title for the latter?
Nemesio
28 Oct 05
Originally posted by NemesioRe: DS: I'm not sure. I think it's Latin - but there definitely is an English translation.
Is the former in English, German or Latin?
Do you have a title for the latter?
Nemesio
Re: Bertone & Ratzinger: Don't know. Read about it in the Wiki article. Couldn't find it on Google.
29 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeLucifershammer: I see you like to dodge the hard questions! 🙂
Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
Maybe it's those damned Protestants who are infallible, all this time!
29 Oct 05
1 edit
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWhere have I dodged anything? Please read my posts (or the links I provide) before making such statements.
Lucifershammer: I see you like to dodge the hard questions! 🙂
Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
I've already given the link for this.
Maybe it's those damned Protestants who are infallible, all this time!
If they are, then they sure have a funny way of showing it.
29 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerFunny: The Protestants say the same thing about you!
Where have I dodged anything? Please read my posts (or the links I provide) before making such statements.
[b]Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
I've already given the lin ...[text shortened]... re infallible, all this time![/b]
If they are, then they sure have a funny way of showing it.[/b]
29 Oct 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerYes, thanks for the link.
Where have I dodged anything? Please read my posts (or the links I provide) before making such statements.
[b]Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.
I've already given the lin ...[text shortened]... re infallible, all this time![/b]
If they are, then they sure have a funny way of showing it.[/b]