1. Standard memberNemesio
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    28 Oct '05 20:27
    LH, Ivanhoe, or anyone:

    Do you know of a list of all the historical canons and whatever other documents pertaining
    to faith and/or morals that are considered infallible?

    I recall that you said the canons of these various councils, but I don't want to have to sift
    through ones that are disciplinary and, thus, irrelevant to my study.

    Nemesio
  2. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    28 Oct '05 23:11
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    LH, Ivanhoe, or anyone:

    Do you know of a list of [b]all
    the historical canons and whatever other documents pertaining
    to faith and/or morals that are considered infallible?

    I recall that you said the canons of these various councils, but I don't want to have to sift
    through ones that are disciplinary and, thus, irrelevant to my study.

    Nemesio[/b]
    One thing that has always puzzled me is the following.

    Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church *is* infallible on matters of morality, when it speaks ex cathedra.

    Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place? Were they overtaken by (and are they still possessed of) a spiritual conviction that they were infallible? But how could/can they know that this conviction itself was/is trustworthy?

    Or was/is it just a case of a bunch of sexually abstinent men in pink petticoats getting carried away by their own moral egotism?
  3. London
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    28 Oct '05 23:39
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    One thing that has always puzzled me is the following.

    Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church *is* infallible on matters of morality, when it speaks ex cathedra.

    Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place? Were ...[text shortened]... ch of sexually abstinent men in pink petticoats getting carried away by their own moral egotism?
    Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place?

    Because that's what Christ told them ("keys of heaven", "bind and loose" etc.).
  4. Standard memberNemesio
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    28 Oct '05 23:42
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]Now, how do the hierarchy *know* that this is the case? Relatedly, how did they come to learn of their infallibility in the first place?

    Because that's what Christ told them ("keys of heaven", "bind and loose" etc.).[/b]
    In all seriousness, can you elaborate on this, or provide a citation
    for it if you don't have time?

    Nemesio
  5. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    28 Oct '05 23:48
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    In all seriousness, can you elaborate on this, or provide a citation
    for it if you don't have time?

    Nemesio
    Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

    Maybe it's those damned Protestants who are infallible, all this time!
  6. London
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    28 Oct '05 23:521 edit
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    LH, Ivanhoe, or anyone:

    Do you know of a list of [b]all
    the historical canons and whatever other documents pertaining
    to faith and/or morals that are considered infallible?

    I recall that you said the canons of these various councils, but I don't want to have to sift
    through ones that are disciplinary and, thus, irrelevant to my study.

    Nemesio[/b]
    Reposting from the other thread.
    ---

    All canons and proclamations of the Church considered infallible can be found in Denzinger-Schönmetzer's Enchiridion Symbolorum. Not having used DS myself, I don't know if it contains only the dogmatic extracts of the Councils and Papal Bulls or the full texts.

    Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone published a partial, non-exhaustive list of infallible teachings of the Church in 1998, but I haven't seen this list either.
    ---

    One minor point: 'infallibility' is a property of the Church relating to certain teachings (which are 'true'😉. It is meaningless to speak of the documents themselves as being infallible. The teachings are also commonly referred to as being 'infallible' because it is known through the infallibility of the Church.

    With respect to the General Councils, it is usually not difficult to tell which teachings are infallible:

    (1) It will be a matter of dogma - faith and/or morals
    (2) Some kind of 'formula' (e.g. "We believe and proclaim" or "If anyone holds X, let him be anathema" )

    Disciplinary canons are those pertaining to Church organisation, pastoral responsibilities of clergy and religious, acts of excommunication etc.
  7. London
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    28 Oct '05 23:55
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    In all seriousness, can you elaborate on this, or provide a citation
    for it if you don't have time?

    Nemesio
    Rather than cut-n-paste, I'll give the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia section:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#II
  8. Standard memberNemesio
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    28 Oct '05 23:55
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    All canons and proclamations of the Church considered infallible can be found in Denzinger-Schönmetzer's Enchiridion Symbolorum. Not having used DS myself, I don't know if it contains only the dogmatic extracts of the Councils and Papal Bulls or the full texts.

    Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone published a partial, non-exhaustive list of infallible teachings of the Church in 1998, but I haven't seen this list either.
    Is the former in English, German or Latin?

    Do you have a title for the latter?

    Nemesio
  9. Standard memberNemesio
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    28 Oct '05 23:55
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Rather than cut-n-paste, I'll give the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia section:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#II
    Thank you!
  10. London
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    28 Oct '05 23:58
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Is the former in English, German or Latin?

    Do you have a title for the latter?

    Nemesio
    Re: DS: I'm not sure. I think it's Latin - but there definitely is an English translation.

    Re: Bertone & Ratzinger: Don't know. Read about it in the Wiki article. Couldn't find it on Google.
  11. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    29 Oct '05 00:171 edit
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

    Maybe it's those damned Protestants who are infallible, all this time!
    Lucifershammer: I see you like to dodge the hard questions! 🙂
  12. London
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    29 Oct '05 00:211 edit
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Lucifershammer: I see you like to dodge the hard questions! 🙂
    Where have I dodged anything? Please read my posts (or the links I provide) before making such statements.

    Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

    I've already given the link for this.

    Maybe it's those damned Protestants who are infallible, all this time!

    If they are, then they sure have a funny way of showing it.
  13. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    29 Oct '05 00:33
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Where have I dodged anything? Please read my posts (or the links I provide) before making such statements.

    [b]Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.


    I've already given the lin ...[text shortened]... re infallible, all this time![/b]

    If they are, then they sure have a funny way of showing it.[/b]
    Funny: The Protestants say the same thing about you!
  14. London
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    29 Oct '05 00:35
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Funny: The Protestants say the same thing about you!
    No one's giving you points for sarcasm here. Either look at the article I cited and debate its merits, or bugger off.
  15. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    29 Oct '05 00:35
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Where have I dodged anything? Please read my posts (or the links I provide) before making such statements.

    [b]Yep. I'd be very keen to see exactly what biblical verses mean that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church--which Jesus didn't seem to single out at the time--is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.


    I've already given the lin ...[text shortened]... re infallible, all this time![/b]

    If they are, then they sure have a funny way of showing it.[/b]
    Yes, thanks for the link.
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