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  1. 07 Jan '08 13:45
    I often seem to get confronted with a scenario similar to the following in the four knights defense (symmetrical variation), being a weaker player and playing weaker players at club level:



    With white to move, what are the real options in this position? Does the undeveloped bishop belong on e3 after 7. Qe2, or is a pin on the knight on f6 better? And when (if at all) is it safe to occupy the d5 square with the knight?
  2. 07 Jan '08 13:54
    A producive idea for white is redevelopment of the Knight on c3 to g3 via e2.

    This has three good points.

    a)It allows white to play c3 and then e4 taking some space in the centre - while also supporting e4

    b)If black tries Bf4 you can play h3 and then Ng3 which removes the pin without having to play g4 and weaken the kingside pawns.

    c)The knight can go to f5 at a later point in time, and put pressure on the enemy king.
  3. 07 Jan '08 14:04
    Originally posted by Tyrannosauruschex
    A producive idea for white is redevelopment of the Knight on c3 to g3 via e2.

    This has three good points.

    a)It allows white to play c3 and then e4 taking some space in the centre - while also supporting e4

    b)If black tries Bf4 you can play h3 and then Ng3 which removes the pin without having to play g4 and weaken the kingside pawns.

    c)The knight can go to f5 at a later point in time, and put pressure on the enemy king.
    If Ne2 Bg4 what next ? Nd2 ? I also like the idea of N going to g3 but how do you handle the annoying pin ?
  4. 07 Jan '08 14:35
    Originally posted by Tyrannosauruschex
    A producive idea for white is redevelopment of the Knight on c3 to g3 via e2.

    This has three good points.

    a)It allows white to play c3 and then e4 taking some space in the centre - while also supporting e4

    b)If black tries Bf4 you can play h3 and then Ng3 which removes the pin without having to play g4 and weaken the kingside pawns.

    c)The knight can go to f5 at a later point in time, and put pressure on the enemy king.
    would this idea (Ne2) not be better only after playing h3 first? If this is done immediately, then black does Bg4 anyway?
  5. 08 Jan '08 07:29
    you could always try Na4
  6. 08 Jan '08 07:32
    Originally posted by vipiu
    If Ne2 Bg4 what next ? Nd2 ? I also like the idea of N going to g3 but how do you handle the annoying pin ?
    isn't that all the pin really is...annoying?
  7. 08 Jan '08 09:45
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    you could always try Na4
    yeah seems like either Bg5 or Na4 were played a couple of times... I quite like Na4
  8. 08 Jan '08 14:03
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    isn't that all the pin really is...annoying?
    Not always, no. See this short game of Capablanca's, for example: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242914
  9. 08 Jan '08 14:15
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    isn't that all the pin really is...annoying?
    As long as you can prevent Nd4 while the pin is still there.

    I'd go with the Na4 option.
  10. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    08 Jan '08 14:45
    Originally posted by scandium
    Not always, no. See this short game of Capablanca's, for example: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1242914
    That fool really diserved what he got!
  11. Standard member najdorfslayer
    The Ever Living
    08 Jan '08 22:01 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by rijnsburger
    I often seem to get confronted with a scenario similar to the following in the four knights defense (symmetrical variation), being a weaker player and playing weaker players at club level:

    [fen]r1bq1rk1/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/2NP1N2/PPP2PPP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - 0 7[/fen]

    With white to move, what are the real options in this position? Does the undevel ...[text shortened]... he knight on f6 better? And when (if at all) is it safe to occupy the d5 square with the knight?
    Can you show the move order to how you got to this position please.

    As I am sure you have good alternatives before this position is reached

    For example 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bc4 Black's best move here is simply 4...Nxe4!
  12. 09 Jan '08 12:23
    for example:

    1. e4 e5
    2. Nf3 Nc6
    3. Nc3 Nf6
    4. Bc4 Bc5
    5. d3 o-o
    6. o-o d6

    I'm sure there must be better alternatives for both sides, but being a weaker player I don't always see them that easily...
  13. 09 Jan '08 12:28
    Not 100% relevant to the position presented but still an interesting read. http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_letters/071803_War_Zone.html
  14. 09 Jan '08 19:31
    Originally posted by najdorfslayer
    Can you show the move order to how you got to this position please.

    As I am sure you have good alternatives before this position is reached

    For example 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bc4 Black's best move here is simply 4...Nxe4!
    I agree with this statement. I don't think anyone willingly goes into the guicco pianissimo short of a few people still learning the game who blindly adhere to basic opening principals. Personally after e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 I prefer to play either the "duffers move" Ng5 or 0-0 followed by c3, d3, Nbd2 and eventually d4.
  15. 09 Jan '08 21:57 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by zebano
    I agree with this statement. I don't think anyone willingly goes into the guicco pianissimo short of a few people still learning the game who blindly adhere to basic opening principals. Personally after e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 I prefer to play either the "duffers move" Ng5 or 0-0 followed by c3, d3, Nbd2 and eventually d4.
    My preferred 1. e4 e5 opening is the Vienna Gambit, but it sometimes leads to this depending on black's move order and my own preference at the time (ie: after 1.e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 (I don't like 3. f4 in this position) d6 4. d3 Nf6 5. Nf3 Nc6 and our thematic quiet Italian position has been reached with no center fork trick playable.

    Personally I'm fine with this position. Yes its very quiet but a little patience and cautious buildup can sometimes reap rewards. Having the advantage of the first move and its slight initiative gives white some tangible advantage. Not something I'd aim for from move one, but as a fallback when I can't get my preferred opening in, its fine.

    And having been playing chess for 25 years I'm hardly some beginner, although this setup is common among beginners who are learning proper development but haven't yet made the leap to more dynamic openings. But that doesn't make the opening bad. Merely quiet, with only slight advantage that requires patience to nurture.