"...the evidence was there for years, he never was a 'borderline' offender...."
I was not totally convinced until I saw Squelch's stats posted early last year.
Before then I was going on a handful of very odd games.
A lot of GM games go over my head but all is usually revealed 5-6 moves later
but a few of this lad's games were on another planet.
A few minutes on google will reveal;
Ronald Weyerstrass is a Dutch chess player. He is an ICCF master.
In 1990 he became CC champion of the Netherlands. Ronald also played in the
15th world championship CC and ended sixth.
The 3 match up's will catch the obvious cheats but can it be used against
a player of this calibre?
Has a national CC Champion, World title contender ever been banned
before using this method?
And this was the dilemma facing the powers that be here.
I'm not defending him, I'm of the opinion the ban was valid and safe.
I think it was out of courtesy that they let Weyerstrass finish out his remaining games and waited until he was inactive for 100 days and had fallen off the rating list before they banned him. Why they extended him this courtesy is something only Russ and Co. know. Maybe it was because of his credentials. Maybe there was a friendship behind the scenes we don't know about. Whatever the reason it's good they finally banned him.
A couple of hypothetical situations for fun.....
Let's say RHP's own WGM Natalia Pogonina starts to play games here. The chance to be able to play against a real GM is great for business and RHP gets many new subscribers because of it. Then after a hundred games or so it comes out that Natalia has an incredibly high match up rate. What would you do? Rule with an iron fist and ban her immediately? Or would you handle it more delicately and let her leave on her own terms?
Now let's say site favorite greenpawn34 skyrockets up to the top of page one. A look at his games shows that crazy and unsound sacs have been replaced with the cold hard logical play of a box. Now what? Throw him out with the trash? Or maybe reset his rating with a warning? What to do?
New to RHP and not that long enjoying cc, hanging around in the "slowly improving" foothills. I know cheats exist in all competition and usually associate it with monetary gain. I find it difficult to understand the other reasons for such cheating apart from some ego-trip based on falseness. I guess with major titles play it starts to count psychologically for some and winning by foul means or fair is in their mind ok.
While many would find it hard to pick and only suspect, the person themselves know. For me, and I don't say it out of some moral superiority, to seek engine aid in even one move in a game means if I win, I cannot in all honesty say to myself I have won that game, for obvious reasons. That can extend to titles too.
The sheer enjoyment of knowing you gained some win etc on your own merit is lost. And to use engines regularly only makes one a mere cipher of an engine, pressing buttons, in a self-demeaning manner, all rather sad really.
Guess its all about some false sense of self aggrandisement.
As for playing against someone who may be using an engine, I regard it all as practice and still get the enjoyment of knowing my own achievements as modest as they may be. Most other players, the great majority honest, would know what I mean, I expect.
Originally posted by KneeCaps Now let's say site favorite greenpawn34 skyrockets up to the top of page one. A look at his games shows that crazy and unsound sacs have been replaced with the cold hard logical play of a box.
There could only be one conclusion that could be drawn from this. Well. Two conclusions:
1) greenpawn34 has started drinking heavily at home.
2) They've installed a pc and/or wireless internet at the local.
No more using the Wstrass games to learn how to play the english and the french. Moves based on those games will get you in trouble. Its like when the judge says "strike that from the record" and everyone must pretend they never heard it
Originally posted by Exuma No more using the Wstrass games to learn how to play the english and the french. Moves based on those games will get you in trouble. Its like when the judge says "strike that from the record" and everyone must pretend they never heard it
This raises an interesting point. I use a database of CC games. I am guessing it might be dangerous to use games played under the auspices of certain organisations after some point in time, say 1990.
Originally posted by Exuma No more using the Wstrass games to learn how to play the english and the french. Moves based on those games will get you in trouble. Its like when the judge says "strike that from the record" and everyone must pretend they never heard it
I have wondered about this myself. If you use a database based on RHP games, you will need to do a "cheat sweep" periodically to purge the games of banned players to avoid repeating a computer line.
Originally posted by greenpawn34 The 3 match up's will catch the obvious cheats but can it be used against
a player of this calibre?
all cc champions before computers pass the statistical test with flying colors, all past & present otb masters as well. by a wide margin. no verifiably legitimate player EVER has been even close to getting the same kind of matchup rates as the engine users here get. and weyerstrass wasn't even the cream of cc play, not even in his prime in the 70s.
no doubt whatsoever. he did it.
we don't know why the admins refused to ban him before. we've asked about it for years, they don't tell. by now its safe to say they never will. but it wasn't because there wasn't enough evidence, that much we know.
Too much hassle. I'll keep on using the database and if I get chucked out it won't be the end of the world. It's not as if I am a master with a reputation (and ego) to protect.
Originally posted by Diophantus This raises an interesting point. I use a database of CC games. I am guessing it might be dangerous to use games played under the auspices of certain organisations after some point in time, say 1990.
And God forbid any of us should use a modern chess book where the author is regurgitating a computer line! At least we are safe if they are referencing an actual OTB game.
It also makes me wonder how the last WC match matched up against computer recommendations- I'm sure someone has done this, and I see a google search in my future!
Originally posted by Paul Leggett And God forbid any of us should use a modern chess book where the author is regurgitating a computer line! At least we are safe if they are referencing an actual OTB game.
It also makes me wonder how the last WC match matched up against computer recommendations- I'm sure someone has done this, and I see a google search in my future!
I watched several of the games with an engine running (HIARCS on an old Mac) at the time. The engine was better at predicting Topalov's moves, but was often completely wrong with regard to what Anand was going to do.
I suppose i should try it again now Mac has gone to the silicon graveyard and been replaced by a £19 PC. I wonder what Stockfish would make of the games?
Originally posted by Diophantus This raises an interesting point. I use a database of CC games. I am guessing it might be dangerous to use games played under the auspices of certain organisations after some point in time, say 1990.
the odds of 'happening' to follow ONLY engine games over dozens of games, which is something the engine detection would pick on, are astronomical. it won't happen by chance before something like all the matter in the universe gets sucked inside black holes, and hawking radiated back out. which is a very. long. time. which makes it also a very bad excuse.
22 Oct '10 02:571 edit
After all these years ...................
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