B-b5 ???

I think the only way to win chess is through forceful moves. Thats why I like the Ruy, white initiates long-term tension in the battle, to undermine blacks position and deny equality, and thus, can hopefully force a winning advantage. Thats the main idea. And when black chases the bishop away he is left with all the problems that 3.Bc4 would bring anyway and with some queenside weakness to boot.

In 3.Bc4 white is attacking the f7 and d5 squares, trying to prove that a faster threat and grab at the center can win. But this doesnt really initiate the same problems as 3.Bb5 becuase the bishop attacks into the heart of blacks position, and the only way to remove that is to chase the bishop away or get white to exchange, weakening some queenside squares that the pawns can never defend again. This brings about a positional struggle different than what 3.Bc4 would bring.

Originally posted by dinosaurus
Dog,

I'm not going to waste any more time after this on you either.

You have it in your head that the world revolves around you. Sorry, Cuz, it don't. Not in my house, not in anybody else's house either except your moms, maybe.

You come in here and start throwing "stuff" up against the wall, full of errors, and then demand that we give you a re ...[text shortened]... bible, remove the beam from thine own eye before helping your brother with the mote in his.

Originally posted by ChessJester
I think the only way to win chess is through forceful moves. Thats why I like the Ruy, white initiates long-term tension in the battle, to undermine blacks position and deny equality, and thus, can hopefully force a winning advantage. Thats the main idea. And when black chases the bishop away he is left with all the problems that 3.Bc4 would bring anyway ...[text shortened]... ver defend again. This brings about a positional struggle different than what 3.Bc4 would bring.

Originally posted by CEE DOG
You must be kidding me.. This again... I thought we had moved forward. If you read the full post I explained and apologized for the one word "sucks".
Why is it that some people want to get along and others just look for fights and things to pick apart to make themselves feel better.
1.-You were not even involved in the discussion untill now. (You added sts before yours? People that actually had something constructive to say. Take a page...

So many people with chips on their shoulders...

Pay no attention CEE DOG. As for me, I play the Ruy Lopez (Bb5) against e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 without fail. The comments posted by Mad Rook from Exeter Chess Club's website are spot on. Taking aim at the f7 square straightaway is all well and good but I feel it lacks a little in subtlety - the blunt approach if you will. The main problem is that in many lines, Black can bring enough force to bear on d5 to achieve the d5 break when the Bc4 must move away giving Black a vital extra move to consolidate.

You can still play in the centre with Bb5 half-pinning the knight which becomes fully pinned if the d-pawn moves. As mentioned before, a6 and b5 straightaway has it's own disadvantages too. Your bishop gets to the same diagonal as if you'd played Bc4 but now it's on b3 and not prone to attack by the d5 break I mentioned earlier. Frequently then, the two players start to dispute whether the queenside pawns are an advantage in terms of the space they provide or a weakness that can be exploited via moves like a4 (to break up the pawns). My current understanding is that Black plays a6 and b5 eventually simply because he cannot tolerate the pressure the Bb5 pin exerts on the e5 point rather than to gain queenside space and has to deal with the attack on the queenside pawns later as a result.

Anyone correct that or have I got it straight?
Cheers

Without going into detailed reasons for each move if you look at the Fritz Opening DB (for example - I am sure other DBs will give similar statistics) you will find 10X as many games with Bb5 compared to Bc4 scoring 57.5% for white against 53%.

That 4,5% difference probably explains why Bb5 is better thought of but you must play the move that suits your style and many beginners find difficulty with the ideas behind Bb5 so Bc4 is the better choice for them. If you choose the latter beware the 2 Knights, a powerful weapon in blacks armoury.

For additional information about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_game

For additional information about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_lopez

I don't pretent to be an expert, or even very knowledgeable in chess openings, but I prefer playing the Italian game to the Ruy with white. The main reason is that I hate the idea of giving up the two bishops with white early in the game and I need to, I'm never going to take the knight on c6 unless I have to. If you're not willing to take the knight, the Ruy is probably not for you.

Also, after 3...a6 4. Ba4 or 4. Bc4 b5 5. Bb3, black can play 6. Na5, effectively "trapping" the bishop into a trade for the knight. I don't think black really has to worry too much about Nxd5, because after Qd7, the knight has to retreat, exposing the d4 pawn. Maybe there are lines where white can play c4 at that point, but I'm not comfortable doing all of that with white.

So, I play Bc4 with white. I love the idea of pinning the f7 pawn after black castles. I also like to play a3 so the bishop has an escape square (a2) that still pins f7 if threatened by Na5 or b4. I know that threatens to get the bishop shut out if black can get pawns to b5 and c4, but I find I can usually prevent that.

As black, against the Ruy, I usually find myself playing very defensive chess, especially because I usually play 3...e6. I'll often end up with bishops on e2 and d2, which looks kind of silly. But, once I know I'm going in with a defensive mindset and get over that, I find I don't mind playing against the Ruy. Ruy players in short games (which I usually play) are very often too aggressive and feel that they have to force something to justify their having played the Ruy. I know really good players don't feel this way, but many blitz players do 🙂

I also think that Bc4 often leads to more fun games because the bishop is better positions to join in a kingside attack on the castled king.

Anyway, I know Bb5 is just as good or better than Bc4, but I like Bc4.

I also think that, though the original poster phrased it stupidly, his essential point, that from a pure black letter chess principles perspective, Bc4 seems objectively better than Bb5, makes some sense and I appreciate some of the responses that explain why this is not really the case.

Originally posted by sh76
I don't pretent to be an expert, or even very knowledgeable in chess openings, but I prefer playing the Italian game to the Ruy with white...

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Me too, but not for the usual reasons.
After 1.e4...e5 2.Nf3...Nc6 3.Bc4 you have 3...Bc5 4.b4! (winning by force) or 3...Nf6 4.Ng5! - also utterly irrefutable I think you'll find.
😏

Originally posted by sh76
As black, against the Ruy, I usually find myself playing very defensive chess, especially because I usually play 3...e6. I'll often end up with bishops on e2 and d2, which looks kind of silly. But, once I know I'm going in with a defensive mindset and get over that, I find I don't mind playing against the Ruy. Ruy players in short games (which I usually play) a ...[text shortened]... played the Ruy. I know really good players don't feel this way, but many blitz players do 🙂

I always go for the Ruy if I get the chance, not that there's anything wrong with the Italian (unless you're a GM I suppose, they don't seem to like it too much) but I decided I wanted to get used to playing at least one opening that was known to be complex and theory laden in the hope that I'd learn something about chess in general. I could have decided on the Najdorf but I came across the Ruy first so...

Re: the a6 move and moving the bishop twice, don't worry about it violating principles, although a6 can be bad or good it's kind of a moot point because your extra move has been cancelled out by Black's pawn move.

Re: having to take the knight - you don't absolutely have to be willing to do it. Fischer liked the exchange variation but it seems to be less popular these days, I back off the knight if it's pinned and only take the knight if Black loses concentration and doing so genuinely wins me a pawn.

Re: the Norwegian variation where the knight takes the bishop - very few GMs do this as Black because of the loss of tempo, yeah you lose a bishop that can prove useful but as it says in, I think, Gary Lane's Ruy book, (I paraphrase) 'if this was the refutation of the Ruy Lopez nobody would play it as White'.

I'm no expert on this, just letting you know what I understand about the opening of this opening! So much depends on style, if you're really hot with the 2 bishops for example, then even if you know that objectively the Norwegian variation isn't the best for Black, it might still put you off the Ruy as White, it might tempt you into playing it as Black, though!

Originally posted by sh76
I don't pretent to be an expert, or even very knowledgeable in chess openings, but I prefer playing the Italian game to the Ruy with white. The main reason is that I hate the idea of giving up the two bishops with white early in the game and I need to, I'm never going to take the knight on c6 unless I have to. If you're not willing to take the knight, the Ruy i ...[text shortened]... and I appreciate some of the responses that explain why this is not really the case.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Taking the Knight is not best as it concedes equality too soon. Ba4 is far better than BXN.

Originally posted by dinosaurus
Dog,

I'm not going to waste any more time after this on you either.

You have it in your head that the world revolves around you. Sorry, Cuz, it don't. Not in my house, not in anybody else's house either except your moms, maybe.

You come in here and start throwing "stuff" up against the wall, full of errors, and then demand that we give you a re ...[text shortened]... bible, remove the beam from thine own eye before helping your brother with the mote in his.