Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

Blackmar Gambit

Standard membermoon1969
Only Chess 23 Mar '12 10:40
  1. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    27 Mar '12 00:453 edits
    Originally posted by chesskid001
    I recall reading a book on the Scandinavian (which can transpose to the BDG via 1.e4 d5 2.d4) where the author recommended 1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 as the most solid route for black.
    I like that 5 ...c6 for black. I am going to start doing it as black I think. I have been thinking it is good for black to do c6 at some point, but was doing it later than move 5. Anyway, this is the variation you list. White to move.



    I have been doing 5... Bg4 before ultimately doing c6. White to move.



    Which leads, for example, to (white to move):



    But I think am going to to just do 5...c6 and not 5...Bg4, and maybe instead do a Bf5 at some point.
  2. k
    Standard memberkingshill
    Mr Ring Rusty
    Wales
    Joined
    02 Jun '11
    Moves
    28718
    27 Mar '12 01:01
    Originally posted by moon1969
    I like that 5 ...c6 for black. I am going to start doing it as black I think. I have been thinking it is good for black to do c6 at some point, but was doing it later than move 5. Anyway, this is the variation you list. White to move.

    [fen]rnbqkb1r/pp2pppp/2p2n2/8/3P4/2N2N2/PPP3PP/R1BQKB1R w KQkq[/fen]

    I have been doing 5... Bg4 before ultimately ...[text shortened]... I think am going to to just do 5...c6 and not 5...Bg4, and maybe instead do a Bf5 at some point.
    There is an excellent article by a very good English GM called Andrew Martin and it's called 'Shopping for a Tombstone'. In the article he recommends the flexible c6.

    The article can be found here

    http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/110103_blackmar_dmr_gmbt_2.html

    It definitely gives black a slight edge but I should not think that white would be quaking in his boots as he still gets lot's of pressure.

    When I play against the BDG I try to leave castling as late as possible whilst clearing by back rank as soon as quicklyso that I can castle either way if the going is getting hot. Generally I personally think that it's best for black to castle kingside.
  3. P
    Standard memberPacifique
    Joined
    26 Jan '12
    Moves
    637
    27 Mar '12 01:23
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Still wondering what are key actions for black to refute the Blackmar-Diemer gambit. Black to move.

    [fen]rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/5n2/8/3Pp3/2N2P2/PPP3PP/R1BQKBNR b KQkq - 0 4[/fen]


    I would not want to play White after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 (alternative is 5.Qxf3 but I don`t see how White can develop initiative after 5...g6) Bg4 (In most BGD attacks this Knight plays important role, so it`s better to exchange him. I don`t like 5...c6 - after 6.Bc4 Black can`t play 6...Bg4?? due to 7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.Ne5+) 6.h3 (most BDG players considers this move as the best and indeed - how else White can try to have something for a pawn?) Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6



    IMHO White lacks compensation for a pawn. For example 8.Be3 e6 9.Bd3 (9.0-0-0 Bb4! 10.Ne2 Nd5 11.Bf2 Qf6 and Queen exchange is in Black favor) Nbd7 10.0-0 Be7



    White lacks Knight stronghold on e5 and Black does not have useless Bishop on c8, to compare with main BDG lines.
  4. P
    Standard memberPacifique
    Joined
    26 Jan '12
    Moves
    637
    27 Mar '12 01:411 edit
    Originally posted by kingshill
    There is an excellent article by a very good English GM called Andrew Martin and it's called 'Shopping for a Tombstone'. In the article he recommends the flexible c6.

    The article can be found here

    http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/110103_blackmar_dmr_gmbt_2.html

    It definitely gives black a slight edge but I should not think that white is getting hot. Generally I personally think that it's best for black to castle kingside.
    After 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. O-O e6 8. Ne5 Bg6



    Andrew Martin considers only 9.g4?! and 9.Bg5, but maybe 9.Bf4 (with Qd2 and Rae1 to follow) is also worth of considering.
  5. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    27 Mar '12 02:54
    Originally posted by kingshill
    There is an excellent article by a very good English GM called Andrew Martin and it's called 'Shopping for a Tombstone'. In the article he recommends the flexible c6.

    The article can be found here

    http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/110103_blackmar_dmr_gmbt_2.html

    It definitely gives black a slight edge but I should not think that white ...[text shortened]... is getting hot. Generally I personally think that it's best for black to castle kingside.
    Thanks for the link and comments.
  6. P
    Standard memberPacifique
    Joined
    26 Jan '12
    Moves
    637
    27 Mar '12 09:50
    Invert BoardPGNHeaders
  7. k
    Standard memberkingshill
    Mr Ring Rusty
    Wales
    Joined
    02 Jun '11
    Moves
    28718
    27 Mar '12 10:08
    Originally posted by Pacifique
    After 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. O-O e6 8. Ne5 Bg6

    [fen]rn1qkb1r/pp3ppp/2p1pnb1/4N3/2BP4/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 9[/fen]

    Andrew Martin considers only 9.g4?! and 9.Bg5, but maybe 9.Bf4 (with Qd2 and Rae1 to follow) is also worth of considering.
    Black is slightly better after 9.f4. I don't think that white will be worried about this as he has all the open lines that he was asking for by playing the gambit. Black has to take care and I would try to swap a few pieces off before castling and giving white a target for a further sacrificial attack.

    Points to ponder:

    *Bf4 strikes at thin air as c6 rules out a knight in on b5
    *Black has control over d5 a break that white like to open up the position
    *Black can gain tempi by playing Nb6 hitting the Bc4 and then Nd5 hitting Bf4
    *the queen would like to be on f3 putting pressure on f7
    *a sacrificial attack on e6 can be shielded by Be7
    *if the bishop goes back to g6 and is exchanged the h7xg6 opens up the h file if black hasn't castled.
    *White tends to casle kingside with rooks on the half open e and f files


    Things to watch for:-
    *don't castle too early as white often sacs on f6 and comes down the h file but clear the back rank so that the king can be zipped to safety if things get too hot in the middle.
    *Watch out for sacks as BDG players like to sack
  8. P
    Standard memberPacifique
    Joined
    26 Jan '12
    Moves
    637
    27 Mar '12 10:471 edit
    Originally posted by kingshill
    Black is slightly better after 9.f4. I don't think that white will be worried about this as he has all the open lines that he was asking for by playing the gambit. Black has to take care and I would try to swap a few pieces off before castling and giving white a target for a further sacrificial attack.

    Points to ponder:

    *Bf4 strikes at thin air as fety if things get too hot in the middle.
    *Watch out for sacks as BDG players like to sack
    I agree that Black might be slightly better, but some of your points seem strange to me:

    Bf4 strikes at thin air as c6 rules out a knight in on b5

    9.Bf4 overprotection of e5 (I guess you have heard about Nimzowitsch) and it does not allow Black to make exchanges, possible after 9.Bg5 (see Martin`s annotations). Also Nb5 may became actual if Black attacks center with c5.

    Black has control over d5 a break that white like to open up the position

    "a break that white like to open up the position" with Black pawns on c6 and e6??? Have you ever played BDG??? Or can you show some BDG games in which White breaks position with d5?

    Black can gain tempi by playing Nb6 hitting the Bc4 and then Nd5 hitting Bf4

    White plays Bb3 & Bg3 and now what?

    the queen would like to be on f3 putting pressure on f7

    what pressure on f7 Queen would make with Knight on f6?
  9. k
    Standard memberkingshill
    Mr Ring Rusty
    Wales
    Joined
    02 Jun '11
    Moves
    28718
    27 Mar '12 16:19
    Originally posted by Pacifique
    I agree that Black might be slightly better, but some of your points seem strange to me:

    [b]Bf4 strikes at thin air as c6 rules out a knight in on b5

    9.Bf4 overprotection of e5 (I guess you have heard about Nimzowitsch) and it does not allow Black to make exchanges, possible after 9.Bg5 (see Martin`s annotations). Also Nb5 may became actual if B ...[text shortened]... be on f3 putting pressure on f7[/b]

    what pressure on f7 Queen would make with Knight on f6?[/b]
    There are TWO (2!) games in Megabase 2012 where Bf4 has been played. There have been 75 games where other moves have been played. I wonder why it's not so popular..? Maybe you know something that all the other BDG palyers don't know..?

    I've played the blackside of overprotection of e5 after double e pawn opening. When I play it there is usually something to protect ie. a pawn on e5 (not thin air.!) Why would you want to protect e5 when black is using e6 as a shield to protect the weak f7 pawn. Black is never going to break with e5 unless he's utilising the pin along the d file to exchange and simplify.

    I have seen a few variations where white breaks with d5 but it would not be common I agree.

    Black is looking to swap off and the knight landing on d5 'forks' the knight on c3 and Bf4. so it gives the option to white of shattering the queenside pawns. White has given up a pawn and now with your suggestion of Bb3 and Bg3 has used a further 2 tempi. This is an extra 2/3 of a pawn. The bishop does nothing on g3 and hinders pawnstorms and rook lifts to h3

    For queen on f3 look up X-Ray attacks. You'll find it in many books. There is a latent threat that will restrict the movement of the f6 knight because of the mating threat on f7.

    The b3 bishop is also out of play and bitting on granite.


    The position is probably only =+ for black so I'm sure that BDG palyers will be happy to play it.


    (My young son is around as I type this so there are probably lots of typos- sorry about that)
  10. P
    Standard memberPacifique
    Joined
    26 Jan '12
    Moves
    637
    27 Mar '12 17:06
    Originally posted by kingshill
    There are TWO (2!) games in Megabase 2012 where Bf4 has been played. There have been 75 games where other moves have been played. I wonder why it's not so popular..? Maybe you know something that all the other BDG palyers don't know..?

    I've played the blackside of overprotection of e5 after double e pawn opening. When I play it there is usually some ...[text shortened]... oung son is around as I type this so there are probably lots of typos- sorry about that)
    There are TWO (2!) games in Megabase 2012 where Bf4 has been played. There have been 75 games where other moves have been played. I wonder why it's not so popular..? Maybe you know something that all the other BDG palyers don't know..?

    Have you looked at the ratings of these 75 players?

    When I play it there is usually something to protect ie. a pawn on e5 (not thin air.!)

    I did not know that Knight is called "thin air".

    Why would you want to protect e5 when black is using e6 as a shield to protect the weak f7 pawn.

    If you don`t understand how important is control over e5 in these BDG lines, then you lack knowledge of BDG.

    Black is looking to swap off and the knight landing on d5

    After 9...Nd5?

    10.Nxd5! exd5 (10...cxd5 11.Bb5+) 11.Bd3

    Black can`t defend versus multiple threats. For example 11..Be7 12.Bxg6 hxg6

    13 Nxf7 Kxf7 14.Bc7+
  11. k
    Standard memberkingshill
    Mr Ring Rusty
    Wales
    Joined
    02 Jun '11
    Moves
    28718
    27 Mar '12 17:332 edits
    Originally posted by Pacifique
    [b]There are TWO (2!) games in Megabase 2012 where Bf4 has been played. There have been 75 games where other moves have been played. I wonder why it's not so popular..? Maybe you know something that all the other BDG palyers don't know..?

    Have you looked at the ratings of these 75 players?

    When I play it there is usually something to prot n]rn1qk2r/pp2bpp1/2p3p1/3pN3/3P1B2/8/PPP3PP/R2Q1RK1 w kq - 0 13[/fen]
    13 Nxf7 Kxf7 14.Bc7+
    Wrong knight lad.

    Nb-d7

    Nd7-b6 attacks Bc4 and after your suggestion gains a tempo with your Bc4-b3

    Nb6-d5 (why would you even consider moving the knight which is holding your kingside together and shielding f7) with a gain of tempo with your suggestion Bg3 (not a good square to support a kingside attack and pawnstorm)


    I am NOT an expert in the BDG I've only ever played against it. In 35 years of playing chess I haven't even played it in a blitz game.

    In a blitz game I'd rather play the white side in a correspondence game I'd rather be black. c6 is NOT my suggestion but the suggestion of a reasonably strong GM who is 400+ points stronger than me. It doesn't crush the BDG but white can hope for += from an opening and only gets =+.

    The players who played Bf4 were ungraded and 2065. These were MUCH weaker than Andrew Martin. If the move had been any good I'm sure that he would have addressed it in the online article that I referenced. I would have thought that the bishop would be much more useful on g5.

    2480 grade played 7.0-0 (43 games average grade 2014 Score 38 /😵
    2250 played Nf3-e5 (29 gamees average grade 1983 Score 44.8 /😵
    2170 played Bg5 (which scored 0 out of 3 so scratch my suggested bishop move above.

    I think these players are a lot stronger than you or I and NOT ONE of them played 7.Bf4. I wonder why..?

    The c6 line seems to transpose from the Caro very often.

    The critical line appears to be

    7. Nf3e5 e7-e6
    8. g2-g4 Nf6-d7!

    Haven't analysed it but it's scored very well
  12. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    27 Mar '12 18:38
    Originally posted by Pacifique
    After 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. O-O e6 8. Ne5 Bg6

    [fen]rn1qkb1r/pp3ppp/2p1pnb1/4N3/2BP4/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQ1RK1 w kq - 0 9[/fen]

    Andrew Martin considers only 9.g4?! and 9.Bg5, but maybe 9.Bf4 (with Qd2 and Rae1 to follow) is also worth of considering.
    More interesting comments. I am making notes. Thanks.
  13. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    27 Mar '12 18:433 edits
    Originally posted by Pacifique
    [pgn][Event "San Sebastian op 23rd"] [Site "San Sebastian"] [Date "2000.??.??"] [Round "9"] [White "Argandona Riveiro, Inigo"] [Black "Korneev, Oleg"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "D00"] [WhiteElo "2208"] [BlackElo "2619"] [PlyCount "104"] [EventDate "2000.??.??"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "ESP"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2000.11.2 Kf6 49. Bc2 Ndb6 50. Be4 c5+ 51. Kd3 Ke5 52. Bc6 c4+ 0-1[/pgn]
    The first 10 moves or so of the variation you post is what I have been doing as black, and it includes doing 5 ...Bg4 before c6, and doing Bxf3 to get rid of white's knight. Firmian of the MCO likes it for black. White to move.



    Similar to my game as black in the OP.

    Invert BoardPGNHeadersComments
    [/b]
  14. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
    Joined
    28 Sep '10
    Moves
    14347
    27 Mar '12 19:023 edits
    Originally posted by Pacifique
    [pgn][Event "San Sebastian op 23rd"] [Site "San Sebastian"] [Date "2000.??.??"] [Round "9"] [White "Argandona Riveiro, Inigo"] [Black "Korneev, Oleg"] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "D00"] [WhiteElo "2208"] [BlackElo "2619"] [PlyCount "104"] [EventDate "2000.??.??"] [EventType "swiss"] [EventRounds "9"] [EventCountry "ESP"] [Source "ChessBase"] [SourceDate "2000.11.2 Kf6 49. Bc2 Ndb6 50. Be4 c5+ 51. Kd3 Ke5 52. Bc6 c4+ 0-1[/pgn]
    Firmian has this variation as advantage for black. Runarsson-V. Johannson Reykjavik 2002. The same as you post up to move 10. I think I like the variation you post better for white than this because in the variation you post white does not do a3 and he stacks on the f-file, which I hated being black against that stacked f-file?

    Invert BoardPGN
  15. P
    Standard memberPacifique
    Joined
    26 Jan '12
    Moves
    637
    27 Mar '12 19:361 edit
    Originally posted by kingshill
    Wrong knight lad.

    Nb-d7

    Nd7-b6 attacks Bc4 and after your suggestion gains a tempo with your Bc4-b3

    Nb6-d5 (why would you even consider moving the knight which is holding your kingside together and shielding f7) with a gain of tempo with your suggestion Bg3 (not a good square to support a kingside attack and pawnstorm)


    I am NOT an expert in t be

    7. Nf3e5 e7-e6
    8. g2-g4 Nf6-d7!

    Haven't analysed it but it's scored very well
    First of all - I don`t claim that BDG is good for White. But IMHO 5...Bg4 is more effective refutation. GMs are also humans and they may made inaccuracies and even mistakes, especially in openings they are not familiar with. I can also argue that 2600+ GM Oleg Korneev played 5...Bg4 (instead of 5...c6, recommended by Martin).

    Position after 9.Bf4 Nbd7 10.Qd2 Nb6 11.Bb3 Nbd5 12.Nxd5 Nxd5 13.Bg3 seems to be not so bad for White - advantage in space gives a good compensation for a pawn.

Back to Top
Sign up or Connect to Play Chess

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree