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  1. Standard member Ari Brenin Cymru
    Siachmat!
    02 May '07 22:21
    In certain QGA games I end up in a situation like this:

    1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nc3 .

    When black tries to hold on to the pawn by advancing a6 and b5 I cannot seem to capitalize on this, I've read that trying to keep hold of the pawn creates big problems for black. What should I play to gain an advantage in these type of situations?
  2. 02 May '07 22:23
    Originally posted by Ari Brenin Cymru
    In certain QGA games I end up in a situation like this:

    1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nc3 .

    When black tries to hold on to the pawn by advancing a6 and b5 I cannot seem to capitalize on this, I've read that trying to keep hold of the pawn creates big problems for black. What should I play to gain an advantage in these type of situations?
    If you see 3...a6 then you gotta strike back with 4.a4!

    Controlling the b5 square.

    Then you can follow up with e4 and the bishop attack the c4 pawn also.
  3. 02 May '07 22:27
    Originally posted by Ari Brenin Cymru
    In certain QGA games I end up in a situation like this:

    1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nc3 .

    When black tries to hold on to the pawn by advancing a6 and b5 I cannot seem to capitalize on this, I've read that trying to keep hold of the pawn creates big problems for black. What should I play to gain an advantage in these type of situations?
    Well, I definitely recommend playing 3.e4! in the QGA, which allows black to hold it, but if you want to play 3.Nc3 then it's definitely bad for black to try to hold the pawn. For example,

    1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 a6?! 4.e4 just gives white the entire center, or if you don't like that both 4.e3 and 4.a4 look fine for white there

    or

    1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 b5 4.Nxb5 is nice.

    And for those that don't know the e3 line trap:

    1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 b5?! 4.a4! c6? 5.axb5 cxb5?? 6.Qf3! wins a piece
  4. 02 May '07 22:28
    Originally posted by RahimK
    If you see 3...a6 then you gotta strike back with 4.a4!

    Controlling the b5 square.

    Then you can follow up with e4 and the bishop attack the c4 pawn also.
    Probably the most natural move, but 4.e4 is more popular and seems to be better, I mean, why should white miss the chance to take the entire center?
  5. Standard member Ari Brenin Cymru
    Siachmat!
    02 May '07 22:34
    Thank you both for your quick replies, I see that a4 solves the problem. While I see that e4 is also a good move, when black plays a6 and then b5 I seem to think that the queenside is very cramped. Also another thing is when black plays a further b4 forcing my knight to retreat.
  6. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    02 May '07 22:35
    In the main line white plays 3. Nf3. It is in these lines that, as MCO puts it, black often runs into more difficulties than the pawn is worth. After 3. Nc3 MCO gives 3. ... a6 4. e4 b5 5. a4, but I don't see any problem with what RahimK suggested.
  7. 02 May '07 22:38 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by cmsMaster
    Probably the most natural move, but 4.e4 is more popular and seems to be better, I mean, why should white miss the chance to take the entire center?
    Picky picky.

    1.d4 d5 2.c4 cxd4 Why not play 3.e4 right away.

    Why should White miss the chance to take the entire center?

    By delaying 4.e4 there is always that chance of the Qf3 trap and White can play e4 a bit later if he so chooses. Not everyone is comfortable having a large center right away.

    Plus some players don't want to get into the a4, b4 Knight move stuff.

    Play what you prefer.

    But a4 is the move to combat black from holding on to the c4 pawn.

    Edit 2: I just read his second mssg, after I was done writing this one and damn! I'm right on the money with the b4 stuff!

    RK
  8. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    02 May '07 23:23
    I've spent a little time digging around on my database. In practice white scores badly with both lines. The problem seems to be that because of the omission of Nf3 white has no pressure on e5 so it's easier for black to break up the centre. e7-e5 in combination with Bg4 scores well for black if white trys playing a4 and then e3. I might be missing a game that refutes all this and my conclusions are based on about 10 or 20 games, but I think it might be worth avoiding 3. Nc3 as black seems to come out better if he gets it right.
  9. 02 May '07 23:41
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I've spent a little time digging around on my database. In practice white scores badly with both lines. The problem seems to be that because of the omission of Nf3 white has no pressure on e5 so it's easier for black to break up the centre. e7-e5 in combination with Bg4 scores well for black if white trys playing a4 and then e3. I might be missing a ...[text shortened]... think it might be worth avoiding 3. Nc3 as black seems to come out better if he gets it right.
    Yes 3.Nf3 is the best move followed by 3.e4 taking the center right away.

    But since the poster said 3.Nc3 is what he plays I continued with that.

    I used to play QG as White and has a few people fall into the Qf3 trap including a 1900 player twice in the same day!

    Greedy people trying to hang onto the pawns
  10. Standard member Ian709
    In the learning
    02 May '07 23:45
    but how often is 2. ...cxd4 really played?

    It's not like the KG where accepting the gambit is the main line
  11. 02 May '07 23:47
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I've spent a little time digging around on my database. In practice white scores badly with both lines. The problem seems to be that because of the omission of Nf3 white has no pressure on e5 so it's easier for black to break up the centre. e7-e5 in combination with Bg4 scores well for black if white trys playing a4 and then e3. I might be missing a ...[text shortened]... think it might be worth avoiding 3. Nc3 as black seems to come out better if he gets it right.
    I would agree with your findings.... TWIC database shows Nf3 or e3 or e4 all about the same % for white... Nc3 is 10% points lower
  12. 02 May '07 23:48
    Originally posted by Ian709
    but how often is 2. ...cxd4 really played?

    It's not like the KG where accepting the gambit is the main line
    In fun games, lots and blitz I've seen it often when I used to play QG as White.

    I stopped playing it so i'm not sure now days, but 2 years ago I used to see it a lot.
  13. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    03 May '07 00:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ian709
    but how often is 2. ...cxd4 really played?

    It's not like the KG where accepting the gambit is the main line
    On my database it's the third most popular move played in 13.5% of games. 2. ... e6 was played in 41.7% of games and 2. ... c6 was played 37.6% of the time. I played it (3. ... cxd4) for a while and out of 11 games won 7, lost 2, and drew 2. Having said that the only game I've lost here playing it as white was on a move timeout. It scores about the same as the other lines, so there isn't a theoretical problem with it - provided black doesn't try too hard to hold onto the pawn - black should try to isolate white's pawn and put pressure on that instead. In this game my opponent solved the problem of the isolated pawn by advancing it and I accepted a draw in a pretty equal positon: Game 1061995 (Crafty gives it as -0.28 but I don't see any way for either side to make vast amounts of progress).
  14. 03 May '07 00:55
    Originally posted by RahimK
    Picky picky.

    1.d4 d5 2.c4 cxd4 Why not play 3.e4 right away.

    Why should White miss the chance to take the entire center?

    By delaying 4.e4 there is always that chance of the Qf3 trap and White can play e4 a bit later if he so chooses. Not everyone is comfortable having a large center right away.

    Plus some players don't want to get into the a4, b4 ...[text shortened]... g, after I was done writing this one and damn! I'm right on the money with the b4 stuff!

    RK
    That's why in my first I said I like 3.e4 much better - it's what I use.
  15. 03 May '07 00:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ian709
    but how often is 2. ...cxd4 really played?

    It's not like the KG where accepting the gambit is the main line
    Since I've picked it up I've seen it more often than anything else against 1.d4 in BOTH blitz and slow games - not most in CC though.

    My blitz rating is 1400's, slow is around 1670.