Caro-Kahn

and here we go... Game 4516142

GIP

Originally posted by scandium
Looks like the Advance variation, or what I can make of it since there's an error in your line: you give 6. Nge2 followed by 7. Bd3 which obviously isn't possible with the a N on e2.

Not trying to be a wise @ss btw, as I'm also interested in anything that takes the Caro out of its usual territory since I too have never liked playing against it.

Lets try again. I know what you're saying I think I left Nf4 out of there.

This is the line as I usually see it (woodpusher level).

1. e4 c6
2. d4 d5
3. e5 {Caro advance variation} Bf5 {most common, but not only move}
4. Nc3 {controlling e4} e6
5. g4 Bg6
6. Nge2 {this is the primary position I am interested in, the rest is what I've seen a lot of (i.e. not necessarily high quality moves} h6
7. Nf4 Bh7
8. Bd3 {on the basis that white is much better developed and can maintain that after either BxB, QxB or , Bxh7, Rxh7, Qd3 with tempo.} Bxd3 {once again - most common in my experience}
9. Qxd3 c5
10. Be3



To be clear, while white has a clear lead in development, the position is still closed enough that I'm lacking in ideas on how to exploit that (Nxe6 , fxe6, Qg6+ always comes to mind but doesn't quite work out) while black's moves are natural french moves (i.e. Nf6, Qb6, ) and he is rid of the weak light squared bishop.

it can be debated but karpovs favorte oppening is the caro kann.and he wrote a book on it. for batsford pulishing.

Originally posted by zebano
Lets try again. I know what you're saying I think I left Nf4 out of there.

This is the line as I usually see it (woodpusher level).

1. e4 c6
2. d4 d5
3. e5 {Caro advance variation} Bf5 {most common, but not only move}
4. Nc3 {controlling e4} e6
5. g4 Bg6
6. Nge2 {this is the primary position I am interested in, the rest is what I've seen a lot o are natural french moves (i.e. Nf6, Qb6, ) and he is rid of the weak light squared bishop.

Nxe6 fxe6 gxe6 was the first thing I looked at too, but like you said, it doesn't look to go anywhere. White lacks sufficient concentration of force while black has an abundance of defensive resources.

To be honest this position isn't easy to evaluate. White may have a lead in development, but its not well placed IMHO and without an attack maybe black catches up with threats of his own. For instance, he can't do it immediately but the position of the white Q, N, & B means that after Nc6 he not only increases pressure on d4 but he also forces white to eye Nxe5 dxe5 d4. Although black has some kinks to work out too. for one he has a problem developing his Kside... I mean, where do you put that N? Nge7 blocks the B in and it has nowhere to go from there since if followed up with Ng6 Nxe6 works, although then black can counter sacs with Ngxe5, but I think white gets the better of that. For instance, some random moves first:

10... Nc6 11. Ne2 (preventing 11... Nxe5 dxe5 and the d4 fork and preparing c3) Nge7 12. c3 (reinforcing the pawn chain) Ng6 13. Nxe6 Ngxe5 14. dxe5 Nxe5 15. Qb5 Qd7+ 16. Nc7+ Kd8 17. Qxd7+ Kxd7 18. Nxa8 and after black takes the trapped N he is still down an exchange for a pawn while d5 is a little loose.

Of course that is a fantasy line but its just to illustrate that even though white's development advantage is offset somewhat by its awkwardness, black looks to have problems getting his Kside pieces out unless he makes some concessions somewhere.

Or those are my initial thoughts on it. and are based upon a first glance at the position only and not any familiarity with the Advance Caro, this particular line, or any concrete analysis. But I gather you're looking for some thought fodder so I figured I'd throw that out there (and hope I haven't made any glaring oversights).

Edit: after a second look, in that fantasy line 14... fxe6 is the proper continuation for black and then its white who looks to have some problems to sort out, as the isolated e5 is pretty weak and the natural f4 just hangs g4 to Qh4+.

Here's what Karpov has to say on 6. ..h6 in his book on the advance variation:


"6...h6
Above all Black safeguards his bishop from attack or exchange, while he intends to construct his play depending on his opponent's subsequent threats.
7. Be3 Nd7 8. Qd2

Worth considering is the formation that Kobalia chose in a game against Gavrikov (St. Petersburg 2001): 8. h3!? (White reinforces the g4 pawn, so as then to ram Black's position by f2-f4-f5) 8...Ne7 9. Qd2 c5 10. f4 Nc6 11. Bg2 Rc8 12. f5! Kobalia sacrifices a pawn, rightly supposing that his advantage in development will compensate for the slight material loss. 12. ..ef 13. gf Bxf5 14. O-O Be6 15. Nxd5 cd 16. Nxd4 Nxd4 (16. ..Ndxe5 17. Bf4) 17. Bxd4 Bc5 18. Nf4 Nxe5 19. Nxe6 fxe6 20. c3 with a dangerous initiative.

8. ..b5 Ng3! The familiar preparation for the advance of the f-pawn.
9...Nb6 10. f4 Qh4 11. Qf2 Ne7
Not possible is 11...Qxg4? in view of 12. h4! and, under threat of his queen being trapped, Black will be forced to part with material.
12. Be2 Nc4 13. O-O-O Nc8 14. f5 Bh7 15. Rdf1 Qe7 16. Bxc4 bc 17. Nh5 For White - heavy pieces on the open f-file, and for Black - the b-file. Which initiative will carry more weight? First and foremost comes the factor of development, and in this White is far ahead of his opponent. Particular unimpressive is the rook h8 (Nataf - Bauer, Mondariz 2000).
Play, firstly linked to passive defence by 6..h6 and then a sharp counterattack with b7-b5, can hardly be fully implemented by Black. He must find a more harmonious way."

Scandium and Schakur, thanks for the ideas and lines. I will have to check them out when I have a board in front of me.

Originally posted by cmsMaster
Hm, well I'll try to offer some advice on the Caro-Kann if I can remember anything, I do remember that when I played 1.e4 I used the Advanced - didn't bother with theory either, but the games never really seemed all that tactical anyhow. The Caro-Kann is really quite boring, but since you're revamping your opening rep. as white, why don't you consider 1.d4 - when played correctly it can be incredibly tactical.

Sure, but there are generally more slow lines in d4 than in most e4 games. d4 can get tactical but even then, it tends to be more about pawns than pieces. This is just an observation and not a criticism. After all, I play 1. c4 and often transpose to d4. Plus, the advance variation of the CK with Nc3 is EXTREMELY tactical.

Here's my first completed game with the line. Unfortunately black could have played better (gave away his d-pawn) and so it doesn't tell me much.

I still haven't had time to go through Karpov's lines. Today at lunch is I think the time.
Game 4488183

Originally posted by schakuhr
Here's what Karpov has to say on 6. ..h6 in his book on the advance variation:


"6...h6
Above all Black safeguards his bishop from attack or exchange, while he intends to construct his play depending on his opponent's subsequent threats.
7. Be3 Nd7 8. Qd2

Worth considering is the formation that Kobalia chose in a game against Gavrikov (St. Petersbu ...[text shortened]... with b7-b5, can hardly be fully implemented by Black. He must find a more harmonious way."

While I may not agree black's play was optimal, I do like Kobalia's approach.

When he was in a "must-win" situation against Leko, Vladimir Kramnik (as White) played 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 h4!? and won the game to retain his title. This line is recommended in the revised edition of "An Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player" by Raymond Keene and David Levy.

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
When he was in a "must-win" situation against Leko, Vladimir Kramnik (as White) played 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 h4!? and won the game to retain his title. This line is recommended in the revised edition of "An Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player" by Raymond Keene and David Levy.

Also interesting. My analysis in a few short sentences is this. White gains an early developmental lead. Black is cramped but gets to play natural moves and breaks (c5). White therefor must breakthrough and open the game to take advantage of his development and the only natural place to do this is on f5.

I played two blitz games against this yesterday.

In the first, my opponent played g6 Bh7 and g6 to stop f5. However taking his bishop out of the game allowed me to commence queenside operations. The other I sacced on f5 to open the game and after an exchange sac for black light squared bishop started eating his pawns (both were against ~1600ish competition on at my local club 5/3 time controls).