...and these zillions of games are standing on the shoulders of The Romantics.
Colle nicked the idea from Staunton.
Who?
Staunton, the guy who ducked Morphy. The King of the Romantics.
And this...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. 🙁
At the GM level yes! but forget all the GM games and names that have
been quoted and tossed about in this thread.
Sorry to pee on everyone's cornflakes but we are not in that class.
It's akin to posting pictures painted by Rembrandt and saying;
"I have posted the picture so now I can paint like that."
This posted by Robbie:
"Here black actually sacked his knight and lost although
the computer seems to think black is doing fine."
Everyone is guilty of this, not just you Robbie.
They post GM games, quote Silman with great authority and yet
need a box to tell them what is going on. It's a joke.
Give us those GM '+' postions and three moves later it will be '='
three moves after that it will be '-+'
Those five games I posted (which I doubt any of you played over) are us.
Play through them with gritted teeth and accept reality.
The two White wins came from bad middle game play by Black.
White got nothing from the opening.
der schwarze Ritter - General Putzer
Black fell for a two mover - that is the level we are at.
What about 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. 3.Bc4 🙂
You don't see that too often a GM level but down here amongst us bottom feeders.
3...Nxc3 dxc3.
And 25 moves or under our DB has 67 games.
43 White wins, 6 draws, 18 Black wins. White has won 69%.
You won't get nothing like that stat looking at GM games.
I chose 25 as it's the standard number for a miniature and it
is the opening we are discussing.
Over 25 moves (2,000) games and they level out to approx 50-50
which is what most openings over 25 move go to on here.
Moral:
Ignore what is happening at the GM level. We are not GM's.
If you have an argument for or against an opening. Show your games.
Let us see what you know about a variaton or a particuliar line.
Paul.
I have 520 of your games on the DB. Not one Petroff. 😉
Robbie
I have 149 games of yours. One Colle, you were Black. (draw). 😉
Regarding the Petroff, the lad whose views we should be listening to is porygon User 91407
He has played 593 Pretroff's as Black.
White wins = 196
Draws = 86
Black wins = 311
Someone should go and tell him. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. = 🙁
I think he might have a counter argument.
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34Robbie
...and these zillions of games are standing on the shoulders of The Romantics.
Colle nicked the idea from Staunton.
Who?
Staunton, the guy who ducked Morphy. The King of the Romantics.
And this...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. 🙁
At the GM level yes! but forget all the GM games and names that have
been quoted and tossed about in this thread.
ell him. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. = 🙁
I think he might have a counter argument.
I have 149 games of yours. One Colle, you were Black. (draw).
I told you GP i dont play it, i was just in a mood for a fight. Nimzos post has really
done my head in though, i mean it, i cannot think of anything else, I even
downloaded stockfish to try to help me but it keeps crashing my measly self
assembled pc after about two minutes. What i am left with is the premise at the
beginning, e5 is not playable, it cannot be adequately defended and black has
concrete plans and lots of activity, therefore i am forced to conclude that the only
alternative is to isolate the queenpawn and play against it in positional fashion,
controlling the square directly in front of it and exchanging pieces. This i admit is
not to everyone's taste, but the strategy is concrete and clear. I was lead to this
conclusion by a number of factors, moves like h3 are redundant, because we have
no intention of playing e5, therefore we do not need to take precautions against the
knight coming to g4. Qe2 was also not good, because after the exchange of pawns
the queen is not well placed on the open e file. Moves like Bc2, trying to create a
battery of Bc2 and Qd3 in anticipation of e5 are also not very helpful, as we cannot
with any certainty impose e5 for the reasons mentioned, therefore the only moves
that helps us in anyway is after ...Qc7 we immediately exchange pawns isolating
blacks queen pawn, our knight is coming to b3 with tempo, controlling the square
directly in front of the pawn, our queen is well placed on d1 to exert pressure
against the pawn, the diagonal for our dark squared bishop has opened up allowing
it to come into the game, our other knight on f3 can make use of the square
directly in front of the pawn(d4) allowing us to play f3 denying the outpost to black,
all in all, these are all essentially positional in nature, of which a computer knows
nothing! our strategy is clear, our goals attainable and we have a weakness
although black may call it a strength to attack.
Originally posted by nimzo5surely we can find an improvement, something like Bc2, Nd4 and f3 denying the outposts to black!
hmm, Colle tried the idea of exchanging the pawn and playing Nb3.
[fen]r1b2rk1/ppq2ppp/1bn2n2/3p4/8/1NPB1N2/PP3PPP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - 0 12[/fen]
Colle - Kashdan Bled 1931 0-1
Colle Proceeded with
Qc2, Re8
Bg5 Ne4!
Re1 Bf5
Be3 Bg6
and Black is fine.
[fen]r3r1k1/ppq2ppp/1bn3b1/3p4/4n3/1NPBBN2/PPQ2PPP/4RRK1 w - - 0 16[/fen]
Colle - Janowski Ghent 1926
Bc2 line
Janowski true to form has gone in for some wild tactics and reaches this position where he blunders.
h5??
Now granted most likely he was worn down from all the calculations leading to this position, but considering all the work he had done. Maybe he was playing whist simultaneously while drinking 5ths of gin...
... Bc5+
ouch only two squares for Jano
Ke8 is curtains for his Queen and the game so he plays Kf7
Rxe4
and does Jano give up?
Heck no, he must have had plenty of whist to play (or gin to drink)
as he grinds this out to a draw in 87 moves.
Originally posted by nimzo5That's why I play the KG- I even use it as my answer to 1. f4 e5 when I play Bird's Opening. Since a 1. e4 , 2, Nf3 player is stuck facing the Petroff or the Berlin Wall unless black decides to step up, they don't really have much over the Colle player.
2. f4
solved.
Now go and study your Spassky!
When Kasparov had to beat Karpov to keep his title in the 24th game, he went to the Reti, and that one move spoke volumes for me.
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34GP, you're getting a little carried away and righteous.
...and these zillions of games are standing on the shoulders of The Romantics.
Colle nicked the idea from Staunton.
Who?
Staunton, the guy who ducked Morphy. The King of the Romantics.
And this...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. 🙁
At the GM level yes! but forget all the GM games and names that have
been quoted and tossed about in this thread.
ell him. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. = 🙁
I think he might have a counter argument.
Of course I haven't played the Petroff, and I said nothing to indicate that one way or the other, and it has nothing to do with my point.
My point was only that if a player is going to give up on an opening because they can only get a slight advantage, then there are a huge number of perfectly acceptable openings that would be heaped on the waste bin. Practically every opening has a line or two where one player attempts to suck the life out of the game.
When you quoted the player on our site who has a great record on the black side, you made the same point I did- white doesn't seem to be getting very far with 1. e4 and 2. Nf3, but it would be silly to suggest that those two moves should be avoided because of a claim that white gets nothing- Porygon's excellent results notwithstanding.
I actually think finding an amateur player who scored well beyond statistical expectations as black says more about the player and the vagaries of amateur chess than it does about any sequence of opening moves, but you were on a roll, so I'll cut you a little slack on that one. It was entertaining at least, and that goes a long way with me!
Edit: I also think I have played through every game posted in the forum except the checkmate in under 20 moves thread, but I do skim that one for items of interest. I'm a chess hobo who sifts through the trash to look for things to recycle!
Originally posted by greenpawn34beautiful analysis! thanks a lot, it is great to read such lines...
...and these zillions of games are standing on the shoulders of The Romantics.
Colle nicked the idea from Staunton.
Who?
Staunton, the guy who ducked Morphy. The King of the Romantics.
And this...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. 🙁
At the GM level yes! but forget all the GM games and names that have
been quoted and tossed about in this thread.
...[text shortened]... ell him. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. = 🙁
I think he might have a counter argument.
getting off track: when it comes to an opening being equal for both sides on certain levels (say colle, e.g.) and all those threads about should i resign or not... can't give it up...
ok, that was a lame excuse to post this vid. however, chess one can find everywhere...(this line brings you on a slippery slope...it is an icy path...look at it from above, look at it otb...) ... oh what a lame excuse, lalala... 🙂
Originally posted by greenpawn34but he has been rated on average 300 points above his opponents.
Regarding the Petroff, the lad whose views we should be listening to is porygon User 91407
He has played 593 Pretroff's as Black.
White wins = 196
Draws = 86
[b]Black wins = 311
Someone should go and tell him. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6. = 🙁
I think he might have a counter argument.[/b]
so maybe he is actually underperforming with that opening😉