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Originally posted by nimzo5one must sympathise with the green one, and i feel somewhat ashamed to hijack his
Game 4812993
The closest thing in the gamesexplorer to the e5!? line.
Interesting that the game is between a self proclaimed pimp in djibouti and a 1600 who mysteriously ramped up a few hundred points before getting bored and timing out a bunch of games.
thread, but it was you guys that brought it up, so lets look at the position, black plays
instead ...Qc7, the purpose of which is to prevent , or make more difficult e5, so be it,
we , in the true way of 'the way of water', change our strategy to accommodate this
latest development for if black insists on preventing e5 we isolate black centre pawn
and once again, go after it in the hope of achieving an advantageous ending. Black is
playing with fire ! ...Qc7
Originally posted by nimzo5This is definitely the critical line in the Colle at the higher levels. I know all databases vary, but I have 14 games with 11. Bc2, with white winning 61%.
Since Black doesn't have to take on e4 (and is strongly advised not to do so) I would suggest looking at lines with Qc7, Qe2 h6 (stopping the e5 & Bxh7+ motif) and now you have a real position.
[fen]r1b2rk1/ppq2pp1/2n1pn1p/2bp4/4P3/2PB1N2/PP1NQPPP/R1B2RK1 w - - 0 11[/fen]
So here Mamedyarov played Bc2, there are alternatives, notably h3 and e5 but game stats and theory pretty much sees this as slightly better for Black.
I would take that stat with a grain of salt, however, as the move 10. ... h6 did not come into prominence until the postal player Robert Reynolds published some analysis on it in 1986, (says Richard Palliser) and the line is still being tested.
Palliser has several pages of analysis on it, and as usual, the better-prepared player is probably going to win!
Mamedyarov is a 2600+ player playing the Colle, so I certainly won't second-guess him playing 12. a4, but Palliser thinks white's best prospects lie with 12. Kh1!?
Here's a game that Palliser references. It is a wide-open game, almost an e4-type position from 1. d4:
If anyone wants to play the Colle (or against it directly, as opposed to dodging it) the 10. ... h6 line is the critical path. An OTB player who does not know it is not prepared to play the Colle in a tournament.
Robbie and this poxy Colle.
Soon It's goinng to start appearing in the Science Forum
as it takes over the whole site.
I've just seen Paul's post good.
And it does resemble a Lopez (from white's side).
But do we have to keep falling back on GM games which
most of us cannot get to grips with. A GM draw at that.
I thought this opening was being lorded as a gift to weaker players.
Anyway back to the position in question and games played by our peers.
Ran this position through the DB.
Found five games 2 white wins, 2 black wins and a draw.
50-50 which is looking typical for this opening.
Interesting to note that the two White wins were in my opinion
switch overs. Black was doing OK going if not better into the middle game.
White got nothing from the opening.
The big difference between us and GM's.
GM's dont' chuck away good postions at the same rate we do.
Let's get out the womb before we start running.
Thormd - Buzz Meeks RHP 2008
Black wins the pawn on e5 and stifles White half hearted
effort at an attack. White resigns when he is about
to lose the exchange.
der schwarze Ritter - General Putzer RHP 2006
Again Black wins the e5 pawn and does appear to be coasting.
He switches off, lets White get some Queenside activity
then blunders dropping a piece.
reddersG - dRr0x0rZZ RHP 2008
Already given in the thread.
Black wins the e5 pawn then faffs about waiting for
the win to just happen. White opens up the King and Black
sheds the exchange to get rid of the dark squared Bishop.
White then overpowers Black. 1-0
Ed Bernheim - dkappe RHP 2004
Again the e5 pawn is lost. White has no attack and watches Black
take over. White drops a piece and Black constructs a mating net.
tomthewizard - Kaoslos RHP2007
The draw is perhaps the most interesting of the lot because
it comes close to what White wants from a Colle.
No beast on f6 and Bishops straffing the Kingside.
White does not lose the e-pawn(!) (the secret appears to be
hold onto to the e-pawn and perhaps don't, as in the GM game
shove it onto e5. So we have learned something.)
White builds up quite a sharp looking attack. I prefer the mess that
follows 24.Bxh6 instead of 24.b4. 24.Bxh6 gxh6 25.Qxh6
What's happening?
Recently saw a similiar OTB position with a Queen holding h7
against a Q & B battery with a Knight hovering.
They played Qf7? Here 25...Qf7 26.Nf6+ mates as in the game I saw.
The 24.b4 idea wins a couple of pawns at the cost of the Colle Bishop.
There is Rxh6 trick in the game but it comes to nothing.
Game petered out into an ending and I lost interest. Draw.
I can see I'm gong to end up posting every stupid Colle in the DB.
No I'm not.
Oh and PS: Did anyone enjoy the Blog? 😉
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Paul - Just for fun I have a counter to Palliser's suggestion by a footnote in Tony Kosten's analysis of the Mamedyarov game where he says in alternatives to a4.
Kh1 - "if White hasn't got anything better than this than maybe he should play another opening."
haha, granted about as useful a comment as "the rest is technique" in GM annotations but interesting to see his opinion.
Then again Finke's annotation in the chessbase megabase 2008 is just a Kh1 line from etchegary - estemara 1992.
and now back to the Naka Attack...
Originally posted by greenpawn34I thoroughly enjoyed the blog!
Robbie and this poxy Colle.
Soon It's goinng to start appearing in the Science Forum
as it takes over the whole site.
I've just seen Paul's post good.
And it does resemble a Lopez (from white's side).
But do we have to keep falling back on GM games which
most of us cannot get to grips with. A GM draw at that.
I thought this opening was be ...[text shortened]... y stupid Colle in the DB.
No I'm not.
Oh and PS: Did anyone enjoy the Blog? 😉
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Originally posted by nimzo5first of all, it was the generalities we are interested on, the move ...Qc7, the move
Robbie-
Why is Black so hot to play 10... Bd6? Outside that it is probably the move of choice in the heyday of the 30's for Kolty, Keres and Maroczy Colle wins but unfortunately for White in modern play you won't find that as the move of choice.
...Bd6 are all employed to do what, to stop e5, this scheme best illustrated
'general strategy', for black, secondly the white side best illustrated whites, 'general
strategy', that instead of trying to impose e5, we change our tact and isolate blacks
queen pawn, in the hope, that after pieces are exchanged, we can gang up on it,
doubling rooks, controlling the square in front of the pawn, etc
It appears to me that this type of planning is better than looking at the merits of
particular individual moves, kind of like standing back from the picture rather than
sniffing it, for to all intents and purposes, pictures are meant to be looked at, not
sniffed!
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Originally posted by Paul Leggettsome general ideas behind the development of the subtle move ...h6
This is definitely the critical line in the Colle at the higher levels. I know all databases vary, but I have 14 games with 11. Bc2, with white winning 61%.
I would take that stat with a grain of salt, however, as the move 10. ... h6 did not come into prominence until the postal player Robert Reynolds published some analysis on it in 1986, (says Ri now it is not prepared to play the Colle in a tournament.
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Hi Robbie.
Had a good chat with streetfighter (Andy Burnett) on Sunday.
(more name dropping, I'm a total poser).
Andy is the author of Street Fighting Chess see Thread 119135.
He has switched 1.d4 and I admitted the times I have played it I
always got good postions. (that came with all the Marshall (a hero) games
I played over.)
I go for a Colle set up but without crippling my c1 Bishop.
Here is me saccing a Queen (which I only saw at the last moment
and played it for the cute double Bishop mate - with The Colle Bishop!! )
G.Chandler - Some French Bloke, Edinburgh 1981.
Andy won the Brillo Prize. I'll do another thread because there is
an interesting back drop.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePlaying by general plans loses games. You have to combine planning with concrete analysis. In every game you have quoted Black has been a tin can to White's Plan- this really doesn't illuminate the reality of the position at all.
first of all, it was the generalities we are interested on, the move ...Qc7, the move
...Bd6 are all employed to do what, to stop e5, this scheme best illustrated
'general strategy', for black, secondly the white side best illustrated whites, 'general
strategy', that instead of trying to impose e5, we change our tact and isolate blacks
queen ...[text shortened]... fing it, for to all intents and purposes, pictures are meant to be looked at, not
sniffed!
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Originally posted by nimzo5on the contrary, it became apparent that in all posts, there was not one reference
Playing by general plans loses games. You have to combine planning with concrete analysis. In every game you have quoted Black has been a tin can to White's Plan- this really doesn't illuminate the reality of the position at all.
made to any over all strategic plans, simply looking at individual moves does not
negate this, analysis without recourse to planning is what loses games or did Silman
write all his books for nothing?
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Originally posted by greenpawn34most excellent, in true Colle fashion, opening up lines against the castled Kingside,
Hi Robbie.
Had a good chat with streetfighter (Andy Burnett) on Sunday.
(more name dropping, I'm a total poser).
Andy is the author of [b]Street Fighting Chess see Thread 119135.
He has switched 1.d4 and I admitted the times I have played it I
always got good postions. (that came with all the Marshall (a hero) games
I played ...[text shortened]...
Andy won the Brillo Prize. I'll do another thread because there is
an interesting back drop.[/b]
however, i must point out that Colle developed his system primarily because of the
Bg5 move,
'Looking at 1.d4 Colle noticed that early development of the White dark-squared bishop
in the Queen Gambit leads to its exchange with inevitable simplifications, favorable to
Black (as in Lasker and Orthodox variations of QGD). So Colle decided to keep Bc1 at
home until the middlegame.'
As for Mr Burnett, I am really pleased for him! although i must say in my defence
that prior to starting a post playing devils advocate of why you should play the
Colle, the thought never crossed my mind!
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieSilman wrote his books for 1400-1600's about the Middlegame not Opening Theory.
on the contrary, it became apparent that in all posts, there was not one reference
made to any over all strategic plans, simply looking at individual moves does not
negate this, analysis without recourse to planning is what loses games or did Silman
write all his books for nothing?
If you want me to post all the obvious strategic ideas in a position you will have to pay me- preferably from the refund you get by returning the shoddy Colle opening tome you used to find that awful Ng4 game.
White's plan is to play Qxf7# proving the genius of this opening setup.
Unfortunately Black is to move and requires no deep plan to stop White's flawed one and equalize the position.
And yes the position after Nf6 has been won by White in a game between a 2400 and a 2300 (dmitrov - Mazi 2008)
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Originally posted by nimzo5ok, I see, both the ...Ng4 and the ...Nh5 lines were given to show why black played
Silman wrote his books for 1400s, if you want me to post all the obvious strategic ideas in a position you will have to pay me- preferably from the refund you get by returning the shoddy Colle opening tome you used to find that awful ng4 game.
[fen]rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/4p3/2B1P3/5Q2/PPPP1PPP/RNB1K1NR b KQkq - 0 3[/fen]
White's plan is to play Qxf7# prov tion after Nf6 has been won by White in a game between a 2400 and a 2300 (dmitrov - Mazi 2008)
...h6, a line which has been adopted by such Patzers as, IM J. Silman, GM S. Ivanov,
GM S. Polgar, GM I. Novikov, GM P. Wells. I wouldn't pay anyone for forgetting to
include general strategic plans when looking at a position, would you?