Some of you may already know this so don't spoil it yet.
This position was reached by Aronian vs Carlsen in the 2006 Tal Memorial.
The game continued
69. ..... .. Ra1
70. Ke7 .. Ra5;
71. e6 .. Ra7+;
72. Rd7 .. Ra8;
73. Rd6 .. Ra7+;
74. Ke8 .. black resigns
Could Carlsen have salvaged the game?
If so how should he have played and why?
... and if you feel really clever how does Aronian win it?
its an interesting catch 22 for white .. the only space that he is safe from check by blacks rook is in front of his own pawn, eventually he gets stuck on the back rank and either has to accept blacks king sitting on e6 or his rook on the 7th rank and losing the pawn.
Basically black should be fine as long as he doesn't exchange the rooks or get too far away from the pawn with his king.
Black should have used the tempo on move 73 to bring his king closer to the pawn:
73.Rd6 Kg6! and for instance
74.Rd8 Rd7+
75.Ke8 Kf6 and the pawn gets lost, unless white allows perpetual with Rd7 Rd8+ etc...
In the game, black indeed made the mistake by playing similar moves, but with his king still on g7:
73.Rd6 Ra7+
74.Ke8! wins for instance Ra8+
75.Rd8, and white will play e7, bring his king (under checks) to the queenside and then come down towards the rook, who can only give check to prevent promotion. Just one line:
75. .... Ra6
76.e7 Ra7 (todelay the king maneuver)
77.Rc7 (makes room for the king) Ra1 (as far aspossible)
78.Kd8 Rd1+
79.Kc7 Rc1+
80.Kb7 Rb1+
81.Ka6->b5->a4->b3->a2 game over
I will leave this a little longer for you all to think about the basic principles here and then explain the drawing method that even Carlsen missed (yet every Russian GM knows).
A small clue. The position as it stands is a draw but the 1st move is wrong (what is the best move?). Even after the 1st move its a draw with precise play but Carlsen misses that chance also (where was his second mistake?). In the final position he realises it is lost (but how is it won?). This is a good example where even GMs sometimes do not know (or apply) "elementary" (at GM level) end game theory.
Originally posted by Dragon Fireperhaps Carlsen's first move (69. ... Ra1) may not have been the 'best', but, as stated above, the position was drawn until move 73.
I will leave this a little longer for you all to think about the basic principles here and then explain the drawing method that even Carlsen missed (yet every Russian GM knows).
A small clue. The position as it stands is a draw but the 1st move is wrong (what is the best move?). Even after the 1st move its a draw with precise play but Carlsen misses t ...[text shortened]... le where even GMs sometimes do not know (or apply) "elementary" (at GM level) end game theory.
Originally posted by Dragon FireTo resurect this thread. I would try Rd2 attempting to get it over to the f-file cutting off blacks king (or if he slides onto e8 white gets mating threats) and shooting for a basic Lucena position.
I will leave this a little longer for you all to think about the basic principles here and then explain the drawing method that even Carlsen missed (yet every Russian GM knows).
A small clue. The position as it stands is a draw but the 1st move is wrong (what is the best move?). Even after the 1st move its a draw with precise play but Carlsen misses t ...[text shortened]... le where even GMs sometimes do not know (or apply) "elementary" (at GM level) end game theory.
This is how i looked at it:
1. Philidor position is not immediately available to black
2. The Lucena position is impossible for white to achieve as long as black is mindful of Rf1 early on and if white moves the rook down to say the 7th rank black either moves his own rook to the f file or moves the rook to the a file. After moving the rook to the f file white can't move his king to the left of the pawn because this allows perpetual check by the black rook. He also cant move the king to right of the pawn because this allows blacks king to penetrate in front of the pawn
3. The "short side" defense is the method black should be employing and the reason that white can't reach the lucena. It looks very similar to Lucena with the important difference being that blacks rook is too far away to allow whites king to chase it down without exposing the pawn
73. .. Kg6 is enormously counter intuitive, and while i can follow the drawing line given by Mephisto2 I can't think of any theory that gives the general principles of why it works. I think black should be trying for the last rank defense at this point?
Originally posted by idiomsFirstly, I agree that the 4 first moves black played are less 'systematical' at first sight, and certainly by the player who showed later on not to know how to proceed. However, they were good, and if you understand the position at move 73, they could even be 'seen' from the start and are 'best or equal' moves.
This is how i looked at it:
73. .. Kg6 is enormously counter intuitive, and while i can follow the drawing line given by Mephisto2 I can't think of any theory that gives the general principles of why it works. I think black should be trying for the last rank defense at this point?
The point is that, even if you feel 73. ... Kg6 to be counter-intuitive, it is THE ONLY move that draws in that position, and for a very simple reason which I thought was given in my analysis. Perhaps you are too focused on Philidor- and Lucena-positions (which are very important indeed) to see other patterns.
edit: I still would like to see somelines with the 'systematic' approach for black.
edit 2: before judging on the degree of systematic play from one player, you should include the effects of the moves of the other player who probably didn't adhere to this system either
Originally posted by Dragon FireSome good thoughts here especially from Mephisto so here at last is the solution. My quotes are from January 2007 BCM.
This position was reached by Aronian vs Carlsen in the 2006 Tal Memorial.
[fen]3R4/6k1/4K3/4P3/8/8/8/4r3[/fen]
Could Carlsen have salvaged the game?
If so how should he have played and why?
... and if you feel really clever how does Aronian win it?
"The position is an easy draw. The simplest course is to wait, since the black rook is ideally placed behind the pawn, preventing Ke7. Thus 69. ... Re2! and 70. Ke7? loses the pawn and 70. Kd6 allows 70. ... Kf7" so "whites only attempt to make progress is 70. Re8 defending the pawn and threatening 71. Kd7" but "now that the rook can no longer block lateral checks, black switches his rook to the side by 71. Ra1! and draws easily" (black having played 70. Re1).
Carlsens move Ra1 is not an immediate loss but allows the advance of the pawn and blacks draw becomes much more difficult and he must play very accurately. "The position (after move 71. e6) is effectively the same as a famous Capablanca-Menchil game from Hastings, 1931 (with) the only difference being white had an f (rather than e) pawn. The golden rule for black is that he must not allow the white king to reach the 8th rank, unless white first puts his rook there."
The initial defense (after the initial error, of this more difficult position) was accurate and 72. ... Ra8! was the only move but 73. Rd6 sets a trap and the only drawing move now is 73. ... Kg6! (73. ... Rb8 loses after 74. Rd8 since black has too little checking distance). Carlsen avoided that mistake but 73. ... Ra7+ is, of course, also wrong.
After 74. Ke8 the game could have continued
74. ... Ra8+;
75. Rd8 ... Ra7;
76. e7 ... Rb7;
77. Rd1 ... Ra8+;
78. Kd7 ... Ra7+;
79. Ke6 ... Ra6+;
80. Rd6 ... Ra8;
81. Rd8, etc...
I hope this theory will save at least 1 game for someone. If it does please post it for all of us.