Endgame Question / For Specialists

I feel white should be able to win this, I´ve given it to Crafty after a short amount of time it says -0.56 (so drawish), but I´ll let it chew on the position for a few hours and report back.

Im pretty sure white wins this.

Originally posted by black beetle
It seems to me that the position is a draw after the inevitable 1.b3 Kb2; the Knight can hold easily the white pawns tied down and wait for his King to stabilize the situation. Then, the Knight can touch in time the squares h6 and h7 winning the necessary tempo with a check to the white King.

An interesting position. My intuition tells my that white can win this position but my sense tells me that black can draw it....

If black can block the white pawns on queen-side with the N alone, then black can take it slowly and stay with the black K on the same side as white has his K.

If black can not stop the pawns with only the N, then I think white has the upper hand.

I doubt highly the variation 1.b3 Nb2? because the black N easily can be trapped on b2 for example 2.Kg2 Ke7 3.Kf3 Kd6 4.Ke2 Kc5 5.Kd2 Kb4 6.Kc1 Kc3 7.a4 with win for white. If black in move 2 or 3 moves the N, then whites K is on and hunting the N with some tempo and got good possibilities.

Any thoughts ??

ok, I will try to play the position today as white(helped by Fritz10) against Fritz10 to see what results will I get...

any of the draw supporters can tell me what way to use for black to fight againt a plan as the one that I was mentioning for white in my previous post ?

Originally posted by DagamoStyle
An interesting position. My intuition tells my that white can win this position but my sense tells me that black can draw it....

If black can block the white pawns on queen-side with the N alone, then black can take it slowly and stay with the black K on the same side as white has his K.

If black can not stop the pawns with only the N, then I think ...[text shortened]... whites K is on and hunting the N with some tempo and got good possibilities.

Any thoughts ??

Nope; after 1.b3 Nb2 2.Kg2 the Knight goes to d1, and after 3.Kf3 Kf7 4.Kf4 Kf6 5.a4 Ke6 the position is a draw.

Originally posted by DagamoStyle
An interesting position. My intuition tells my that white can win this position but my sense tells me that black can draw it....

If black can block the white pawns on queen-side with the N alone, then black can take it slowly and stay with the black K on the same side as white has his K.

If black can not stop the pawns with only the N, then I think ...[text shortened]... whites K is on and hunting the N with some tempo and got good possibilities.

Any thoughts ??

My idea was to transform this position into a Knight vs Rook Pawn ending, which we know it is a draw. So at first I checked how the Knight could touch a square at the h file in order to hold it (this idea is not mine -it's known theory based on a Grigoriev's study of 1932, which is mentioned by Dvoretsky too: the White has his King on a6 and his Knight on b2, whilst the black King stands on e3 and has a black pawn on h6. The White plays and gets a forced draw at seven).

At the same time, the Black has to set up a barrier against the white King; according to this evaluation, 1. ...Nb2 is accurate because it serves this purpose too, and the variation I offered forces the draw. If there is a refutation, I cannot find it!

However I don't know if there are other ways to force a draw, and I would really love to hear a comment.

After 7 hours Crafty hit an End Game Table Base draw. I looked at it at 14 hours and its current best line is: 1.b3 Ne3 2. c4 Ke7 3. Kg1 Nd1 4. Kg2 Nc3 4. Kg2 Nc3 5. a4 Kd6 6. Kh3 Nb1 7. a5 Nd2 8. Kh4 Nxb3 9. Kh5 Nxa5 10. Kh6 Nxc4 <EGTB>



I´ll leave it running for a few days in case it changes its mind, but I think this is a drawn endgame. Having said that it may have been worth playing out as a human could easily misplay the black side.

Originally posted by DeepThought
After 7 hours Crafty hit an End Game Table Base draw. I looked at it at 14 hours and its current best line is: 1.b3 Ne3 2. c4 Ke7 3. Kg1 Nd1 4. Kg2 Nc3 4. Kg2 Nc3 5. a4 Kd6 6. Kh3 Nb1 7. a5 Nd2 8. Kh4 Nxb3 9. Kh5 Nxa5 10. Kh6 Nxc4 <EGTB>

[fen]8/7p/3k3K/8/2n5/8/7P/8[/fen]

I´ll leave it running for a few days in case it changes its mind, but I thin ...[text shortened]... ing said that it may have been worth playing out as a human could easily misplay the black side.

Very Thanx DeepThought -it 's the same concept with different variation, it boils down to a Knight vs Rook Pawn endgame; therefore I conclude that there are many different variations that lead to a forced draw based on the ideas 1.b3 Nb2 and 1.b3 Ne3 for starters, but it is hard for me to see farest than my nose😵

Though I can't be sure without extensive analysis, from a general appraisal of the position, I am inclined to agree with those posters who have suggested that Black can hold the draw after 1. b3 Ne3. It has also also been suggested that Black's resources are sufficient after 1. b3 Nb2, but I have serious doubts about this variation. Specifically, the plan of marching the King up the h-file looks promising. Here's a sample line: 1. b3 Nb2 2. Kg2 Nd1 3. Kg3 Ke7 4. Kh4 Ne3 5. c3 Kd6 6. Kh5 Nd5 7. c4 Ne3 8. h3 Nf5 9. Kg5 Ke5 10. b4 Ne7 11. h4 Kd4 12. c5 Kc4 13. a3 Kb3 14. Kf6 Nd5+ 15. Kg7 h5 16. Kh6 Ne7 17. Kxh5 and White is winning. Obviously, one sample line is not proof, but my doubts about the effectiveness of 1. ... Nb2 remain.

Originally posted by AlboMalapropFoozer
Though I can't be sure without extensive analysis, from a general appraisal of the position, I am inclined to agree with those posters who have suggested that Black can hold the draw after 1. b3 Ne3. It has also also been suggested that Black's resources are sufficient after 1. b3 Nb2, but I have serious doubts about this variation. Specifically, ...[text shortened]... ly, one sample line is not proof, but my doubts about the effectiveness of 1. ... Nb2 remain.

I like the variations that are not taken seriously🙂

There are two forced refutations of your line -this position is quite rich!

1.b3 Nb2 2. Kg2 Nd1 3. Kg3 and then

3. ...Ne3 4.c4 Ke7 5.Kf4 (5.Kh4 Nf5+ 6.Kg5 Ke6 7.a4 Nd4 8.a5 Kd7 9.b4 Nf3+ 10.Kh6 Nxh2 11.Kxh7 draw) Nc2 6.Kg5 Nb4 7.a3 Nc2 8.Kh6 Nxa3 9.Kxh7 Nc2 and draw.

Now I am sure that the line 1.b3 Nb2 2.Kg2 Nd1 3.Kg3 Ne3 4.c4 Ke7 is solid too, and the Black is OK. Since 5.Kf4 and 5.Kh4 are both leading to a forced draw, whilst on the other hand the forced drawish variation presented by DeepThought cannot be refuted, I conclude that the position is anyway a forced draw -until its refutation, that is🙂

Paulbuchmanfromfics got us all on the run😵

black beetle: I can't tell if you are making a joke or not. If yes, then I apologize for not recognizing it. If no, then please review my line again. In response to Black's Ne3, I have White playing c3, not c4 and this subtlety is not insignificant. Fortunately, on one thing, we do agree: the position is rich.

Originally posted by AlboMalapropFoozer
[b]black beetle: I can't tell if you are making a joke or not. If yes, then I apologize for not recognizing it. If no, then please review my line again. In response to Black's Ne3, I have White playing c3, not c4 and this subtlety is not insignificant. Fortunately, on one thing, we do agree: the position is rich.[/b]

Of cource I am not joking, you just missed a bit!

Please check it out once more.
You gave this variation:
“Here's a sample line: 1. b3 Nb2 2. Kg2 Nd1 3. Kg3 Ke7 4. Kh4 Ne3 5. c3 Kd6 6. Kh5 Nd5 7. c4 Ne3 8. h3 Nf5 9. Kg5 Ke5 10. b4 Ne7 11. h4 Kd4 12. c5 Kc4 13. a3 Kb3 14. Kf6 Nd5+ 15. Kg7 h5 16. Kh6 Ne7 17. Kxh5 and White is winning.”

Mind you, at the above mentioned line of yours Ne3 from the Black comes after 4.Kh4 (it is the forth move of your variation), and then you suggest 5.c3 etc.


However my refutation begins earlier, for I offered 3. …Ne3 instead of playing 3. …Ke7 as you proposed. Then follows the forced 5.c3 Ke7, and this is the reason why I said I am sure that the line 1.b3 Nb2 2.Kg2 Nd1 3.Kg3 Ne3 4.c4 Ke7 is solid too, and the Black is OK.


I hope now everything is clear🙂

In "Basic chess endings", Reuben Fine (1941), I came across the following sentence: "Kt + P against more than three Pawns is at best a draw for White [edit: all diagrams and discussions are from White's point of view]. When Black has three connected passed Pawns and the Knight can manage to blockade them and prevent the King from coming to the aid of the Pawns he can hold the game".

In the diagram that is discussed in this forum edit we can easily point out the following:
1) White's King is to far away from its passed pawns
2) Black's Knight can blockade the connected passed pawns
3) Black is able (using the tempi created by the blockading Knight) to capture the pawns with its King

If the connected passed pawns where on the fifth rank (or are able to reach the fifth rank; paraphrasing Mr. Fine), White would have been able to win.

So, even though three connected passed pawns are on the board, which normally should be sufficient to win. In this particular case White can only manage a draw.

Originally posted by jeroen1975
In "Basic chess endings", Reuben Fine (1941), I came across the following sentence: "Kt + P against more than three Pawns is at best a draw for White [edit: all diagrams and discussions are from White's point of view]. When Black has three connected passed Pawns and the Knight can manage to blockade them and prevent the King from coming to the aid of the ...[text shortened]... rmally should be sufficient to win. In this particular case White can only manage a draw.

Sure thing😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Of cource I am not joking, you just missed a bit!

Please check it out once more.
You gave this variation:
“Here's a sample line: 1. b3 Nb2 2. Kg2 Nd1 3. Kg3 Ke7 4. Kh4 Ne3 5. c3 Kd6 6. Kh5 Nd5 7. c4 Ne3 8. h3 Nf5 9. Kg5 Ke5 10. b4 Ne7 11. h4 Kd4 12. c5 Kc4 13. a3 Kb3 14. Kf6 Nd5+ 15. Kg7 h5 16. Kh6 Ne7 17. Kxh5 and White is winning.”

Mind you, a ...[text shortened]... d1 3.Kg3 Ne3 4.c4 Ke7 is solid too, and the Black is OK.


I hope now everything is clear🙂

And I just noticed a typo (of course 5.c4 Ke7 instead of 5.c3 Ke7).

So I have to stand corrected as following:

{However my refutation begins earlier, for I offered 3. …Ne3 instead of playing 3. …Ke7 as you proposed. Then follows the forced 5.c4 Ke7, and this is the reason why I said I am sure that the line 1.b3 Nb2 2.Kg2 Nd1 3.Kg3 Ne3 4.c4 Ke7 is solid too, and the Black is OK.}

I am sorry for the inconvenience.