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Engine cheats - How should we approach them?

Engine cheats - How should we approach them?

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2 edits

Originally posted by mikelom
I'd like to know who exactly copies and pastes my PGNs, FENs etc, per move, whilst games are in progress.

It doesn't get much much simpler than that, for an initial start!

-m.

What say ye?
My apologies, I posted in error.

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Originally posted by Zygalski
Page view logs are a key weapon in the cheat hunter's arsenal.
If a player logs into site, then downloads pgns or fens regularly then moves moments later in each of those games, and the moves match engine choices, you've pretty much got an open & shut case of idiotic engine use.
I regularly download pgns of my games from the position to search the database as
there is no way to link the games to the database directly (there is but I dont know
how to do it) on entering the database i can do a search of over 4.5 million games.
Some of my games have went twenty or so moves and are still in book and I have
downloaded the pgn at every turn, how else am i supposed to research the position
otherwise, its simply more convenient to download the pgn. On doing so I get a
report of the frequency of the moves and the winning or losing percentage, the
highest rated games, the quickest white or black wins, the latest game or the oldest
games etc etc etc i can then choose a line that I like and refer back to the game
after a few minutes depending on the complexity of the position. The process is time
consuming but I dont know how else to do it.

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Analysis of cheats excludes database moves from the likes of the chessbase 4.8m game database.


Originally posted by Zygalski
Analysis of cheats excludes database moves from the likes of the chessbase 4.8m game database.
How do you know this?

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Originally posted by RJHinds
How do you know this?
Because he was a game moderator on this site.

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I wasn't a mod here, but I use Batch Analyzer which automatically excludes megabase moves from analysis.

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Originally posted by Proper Knob
Because he was a game moderator on this site.
I don't think so. Anyway, it is common sense to exclude database moves.

Edit: He explained himself.

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Originally posted by Zygalski
I wasn't a mod here, but I use Batch Analyzer which automatically excludes megabase moves from analysis.
My mistake.


Originally posted by Marinkatomb
With the demise of the game mods and the constant on going grumblings of the community as a result, i thought it might be interesting to have a discussion about possible alternative ways of dealing with this issue.

From what i can gather/remember, the game mods were disbanded, in part, because members of the moderation team were themselves accused of ...[text shortened]... robably shouldn't go on and on indefinitely. What are peoples thoughts/suggestions?
Thank you for your input. I guess you started this thread at least partially because of me (complaining and so on).

I joined this site in 2005, coming from a blitz site where my rating was 1900-2000. I expected to be in that range also on RHP, although I had no idea how different blitz is to CC. When I reached 1900+, it was difficult to find opponents strong enough for a competitive game. So, I decided to subscribe and to join the Clan "The Funky Movers". That was 6 1/2 years ago. I had a pleasent time, meeting a lot of strong opponents. Some were cheats, but most were real.

In 2008, I had games with David Tebb and with Cludi, both game mods at that time. I had had some in-game messages with both of them. Very informative about the processes that occurred behinf the curtain at that time. I remember that david was quite frustrated about the situation with the cheats, while I was still confident (naive?).

Four years later, I am at the end of the road it seems. It looks like a zombie infected area: A cheat hits a so far genuine player. Genuine player turns to zombie mode "why should they get away with cheating- well I do the same to stand my ground".

Sad thing is, I have no idea how to get rid of this.

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Originally posted by gambit05
Thank you for your input. I guess you started this thread at least partially because of me (complaining and so on).

I joined this site in 2005, coming from a blitz site where my rating was 1900-2000. I expected to be in that range also on RHP, although I had no idea how different blitz is to CC. When I reached 1900+, it was difficult to find opponents s ...[text shortened]... l I do the same to stand my ground".

Sad thing is, I have no idea how to get rid of this.
Well, we could at least slow it down by banning people with high move matchups, like we used to do.

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Originally posted by SwissGambit
Well, we could at least slow it down by banning people with high move matchups, like we used to do.
There never was any 'We' involved in the banning process. The game mods, sometimes backed up by community outrage in this forum, would recommend a ban to Admin. 'Admin' is the website owner. If that person (Russ) agreed, the ban was imposed. If not, it wasn't. And these days, isn't


Originally posted by Zygalski
I wasn't a mod here, but I use Batch Analyzer which automatically excludes megabase moves from analysis.
Sounds like an awesome program.


Originally posted by atticus2
There never was any 'We' involved in the banning process. The game mods, sometimes backed up by community outrage in this forum, would recommend a ban to Admin. 'Admin' is the website owner. If that person (Russ) agreed, the ban was imposed. If not, it wasn't. And isn't
Yes, there was a 'we' involved in the banning process - the other folks you mentioned - even if the ultimate decision was Russ's.

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Originally posted by gambit05
Thank you for your input. I guess you started this thread at least partially because of me (complaining and so on).

I joined this site in 2005, coming from a blitz site where my rating was 1900-2000. I expected to be in that range also on RHP, although I had no idea how different blitz is to CC. When I reached 1900+, it was difficult to find opponents s l I do the same to stand my ground".

Sad thing is, I have no idea how to get rid of this.
Thank you for your input. I guess you started this thread at least partially because of me (complaining and so on).

Well yes and no, Personally i really don't see any good reason why the policy has been abandoned. Yes there were problems, but an internet chess site that doesn't remove cheats isn't a serious chess site, it's just as simple as that. Playchess/ICC, both massively used, cheats banned hourly. What is the result? The site is head to toe in GMs and IMs, right down to beginners, as it should be.

When i first started online chess i played at yahoo. At the time it was a really well used service and was considered one of the best places to play chess. But over time sites started coming along that were designed specifically with chess players in mind. One of the most important things to get right is proper enforcement of the rules.

--> Why have the rules if you aren't going to enforce them? <--

This site is in direct competition with sites like chess.com. I have played there, though not for a while, but i do pop in from time to time to see what's going on and every time i do it has changed for the better (mostly).

Now, i don't want to dis RHP, i love this site and that's why i'm still here, but this has to be said. Chess.com has really pushed ahead in the last 3 or 4 years and for a number of good reasons. Their blitz section was once clunky and prone to lag. Now it is smooth, has tournaments to enter, and is free. There are literally hundreds of people writing blogs on that site, some of which are really excellent! All the facilities that we have here on RHP are used, many vastly improved or more functional. But the one thing that really sets it apart, is they are prepared to ban cheats, regularly (daily!) and they make no apology for it either! And why should they? The rules are clear. They obviously have a large number of people working at keeping the site free of cheats and it works.

As far as i can see, there is only one real difference between the two sites. Chess.com is in constant development and RHP isn't. I know Russ and Chris do other contract work away from the site, that's fair enough, but unfortunately this comes at a cost as other sites aren't standing still. It is a real shame too as only a few years ago this was easily the best Correspondence site on the net, I can't help but feel a real opportunity was missed somewhere down the line. I've seen Chess.com advertise for developers and have built the site up into fully blown business, with employees, etc... This means that there are lots of people around to share the extra burden that game moderation must create, but now that this site has reached the point where they have a working system of detection and enforcement, they stand right out in front.

I think this probably represents the main obstacle to game moderation returning to the site. It is messy, time consuming and you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. But is it really a choice? Cheating is the biggest issue for online chess players, you can't just ignore that because there are sites that don't, over time these sites will just end up stealing all your users, simple as that..

I have many friends here (not least yourself Oliver) but if those friends start wandering off and playing elsewhere, my ties to this site slowly get eroded away. I can't help but feel that there is a tipping point that isn't being considered properly. It is not inconceivable that this has started already. What about all the players who are now choosing that site over this one? They will be laying down roots in exactly the same way, even if this site suddenly started adding functionality and moderation, those players are lost, they're already committed elsewhere. Once the rot sets in it will be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to turn the clocks back...


Originally posted by Marinkatomb
With the demise of the game mods and the constant on going grumblings of the community as a result, i thought it might be interesting to have a discussion about possible alternative ways of dealing with this issue.

From what i can gather/remember, the game mods were disbanded, in part, because members of the moderation team were themselves accused of ...[text shortened]... robably shouldn't go on and on indefinitely. What are peoples thoughts/suggestions?
There is a reliable way to detect cheats, admins have no interest in removing them so I gave up bothering sending info in as did others I've talked with.

Even RJHinds can't figure out why he's still here.