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forced draw is it fair

Standard membertim88
Only Chess 13 Aug '12 08:59
  1. P
    Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
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    14 Aug '12 19:061 edit
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    Hi Tim,

    I think people may not be giving your question a fair hearing due to semantics.

    We all know that a forced draw is legal, but that is not what you are asking. If I understand you correctly, your question can be restated to ask "Are the rules allowing a defender to force a draw a fair result for a game?"

    I think this is a f when my opponent blunders, and I just happen to be the guy across the board at the time!
    Chess is a complex game, but when a new user is surprised by a rule they did not know yet the standard answer is as follows:

    "War is war, loser".

    Once a chess player understands this concept, they will understand why it is perfectly fine to force a draw, take a pawn enpassant, be unable to castle out of or through check, time banks, vacation, etc.

    Another way to approach the situation is this. If you are in a seemingly losing position do you want to lose? If you have an option to draw the game, will you try? You should, and if you don't want to force a draw based on honor or any other silly reasoning you have no business playing chess.

    On the plus side, if a rule you didn't understand pisses you off, you are likely to remember the rule. The more you know about the chess the better, and every rule that pissed you off at one point will make you smile later when you use it to your advantage. Anyone complaining and wanting to change a rule may as well complain the sky is blue and not yellow like the sun. It's blue, get over it and move on.

    P-
  2. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    14 Aug '12 19:53
    Originally posted by thaughbaer
    Greenpawn did a blog on this... some players will actually give up the win in favour of a perpetual.. I'd say that's fair.

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/blog/blogread.php?blogpostid=42
    Hi Thaughbaer.

    Perpetual Check. A Collection of RHP Beauties
    That is a good blog. One of my better efforts.
    (must see if I can do a part II)

    http://www.redhotpawn.com/blog/blogread.php?blogpostid=42

    Draws by perpetual check are part of the beauty of the chess.
    It only seems unfair if you have blown a won game by allowing one.
    Don't blame the rules of the game.
  3. m
    Standard membermorgski
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    17 Aug '12 12:551 edit
    A perfect illustration of a fair use of the forced draw. I got ahead, I got complacent, my opponent made me pay...

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  4. Subscribermoonbus
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    17 Aug '12 16:351 edit
    Marshall vs Lasker, New York 1924, Round Nine. Botvinnik vs Lasker, Moscow 1935, Round 14. QED
  5. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    17 Aug '12 19:311 edit
    I've posted this before, it's a classic.

    I spot the perpetual and fall for a stalemate.

    R.Austin v G.Chandler, Edinburgh Club Championship. 1980.

    Up to here I've played a good game, saccing my Queen for loads
    of pieces plus all the play. Now I'm in wrapping it up mood.

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  6. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
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    28 Aug '12 09:04
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    I've posted this before, it's a classic.

    I spot the perpetual and fall for a stalemate.

    R.Austin v G.Chandler, Edinburgh Club Championship. 1980.

    Up to here I've played a good game, saccing my Queen for loads
    of pieces plus all the play. Now I'm in wrapping it up mood.

    [pgn]
    [FEN "5rk1/p2p2pp/2b1p3/2p1Pp1P/5P2/4Q3/r3N1P1/7K w - - 0 1"]

    ...[text shortened]... {The boy genius strikes again. If 6.Qxf8+ Rg8+ and 0-1.} 5. Qxh7+ Kxh7 {Stalemate.}[/pgn]
    A queen sac (you were forced to take the Q) by Mr. Austin to get the stalemate. Nice.
  7. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
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    28 Aug '12 09:07
    Originally posted by morgski
    A perfect illustration of a fair use of the forced draw. I got ahead, I got complacent, my opponent made me pay...

    [pgn][Event "Challenge"] [Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"] [Date "2012.06.06"] [EndDate "2012.07.15"] [Round "?"] [White "VelvetEars"] [Black "morgski"] [WhiteRating "1802"] [BlackRating "1870"] [WhiteElo "1802"] [BlackElo "1870"] [Result "1 ...[text shortened]... ency means it ends a draw, i.e. Qh5+, Kg8, Qe8+ Kh7 etc} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
    Interesting game and also good demonstration of the perpetual check. By the way, in the position below, did he (white) take with the RXN giving up the exchange because he wanted to retain his fianchetto bishop?

  8. C
    Standard memberChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
    American West
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    28 Aug '12 19:06
    Originally posted by tim88
    by continuously checking your opponent,
    Look at it this way, if you're ever in a position in a seemingly hopeless game to perpetually check and get a draw, do so. It's all part of the game there Timbo.🙂


    A draw is better than a loss any day of the week. 😀
  9. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    28 Aug '12 20:341 edit
    Just resigned in a game where my opponent side-stepped two perpetuals by me.
    Game 9480073 I played my last move so I could sent a well played note
    and resigned.

    I do feel a wee bit sorry for my opponents in games like this.
    They turn up, play a good opening and just when they are ready to practise
    their middle game technique I throw material at them till I'm out of ammo
    and ideas and then resign. I enjoyed every minute of it, it's the waiting to see
    if they fall for the trap. I always love that bit, it's like fishing.
    All they get to do is make a handful of forced moves and are left wondering.
    'What that all about?".

    greenpawn34 - Vhega RHP 2012

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    Perpetual chance number 2.

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  10. Standard membermoon1969
    Houston, Texas
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    28 Aug '12 23:04
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Just resigned in a game where my opponent side-stepped two perpetuals by me.
    Game 9480073 I played my last move so I could sent a well played note
    and resigned.

    I do feel a wee bit sorry for my opponents in games like this.
    They turn up, play a good opening and just when they are ready to practise
    their middle game technique I throw materi ...[text shortened]... fxg6 6. Qf6+ Ke8 7. Qe6+ Kf8 8. Qf6+ Ke8 9. Qe6+[/pgn]
    Oh my goodness. Especially the first game.
  11. p
    Standard memberptriple42
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    29 Aug '12 15:34
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Just resigned in a game where my opponent side-stepped two perpetuals by me.
    Game 9480073 I played my last move so I could sent a well played note
    and resigned.

    I do feel a wee bit sorry for my opponents in games like this.
    They turn up, play a good opening and just when they are ready to practise
    their middle game technique I throw materi ...[text shortened]... fxg6 6. Qf6+ Ke8 7. Qe6+ Kf8 8. Qf6+ Ke8 9. Qe6+[/pgn]
    Perhaps I'm missing something...

    You state "you enjoyed every minute of it" but you've also stated elsewhere that the aim of chess is to checkmate your opponent.

    Did your enjoyment supersede the disappointment of the defeat? Your philosophy of chess, I guess?
  12. V
    Standard memberVelvetEars
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    29 Aug '12 15:40
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Interesting game and also good demonstration of the perpetual check. By the way, in the position below, did he (white) take with the RXN giving up the exchange because he wanted to retain his fianchetto bishop?

    [fen]r1bq1rk1/ppp2ppp/4pb2/3nn3/2B5/1P6/PBPP1PPP/RN1QR1K1 w - - 0 10[/fen]
    Yes I did, I felt if I could use my bishop pair effectively it would be an appropriate sacrifice. However as the game went on it turned out that I miscalculated quite badly there and was lucky to come out with a draw.
  13. Subscribergreenpawn34
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    29 Aug '12 16:45
    Hi ptriple42

    Yes the onbject of the game is checkmate and to win a few you must be
    fully prepard to lose a few and enjoy yourself.

    "Did your enjoyment supersede the disappointment of the defeat?"

    On here a there is no disappointment of the defeat. What is the point?
    I get disappointmented if I miss a shot for me only to discover it after a game.

    I'll go for the flashy 'show off' finish if I see one. (cooking up a real beauty
    in my one, to date, remaining game, a real beauty.)

    I actually get a wee buzz if I miss shot against me. (I always think they have
    missed something and have to find out what it was. If it's sound then....drats!).

    I lie. Had a feeling of disappointment in myself when I lost a team game on here.
    Then I felt I had let people down. Solution no more teams games or no joining a clan.

    "Your philosophy of chess, I guess?"

    All I wantt to do is set traps to mate people at chess, drink beer and get laid.
  14. Ro
    Standard memberRank outsider
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    29 Aug '12 18:10
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    All I wantt to do is set traps to mate people at chess, drink beer and get laid.
    Do you find the first two help you in the last?
  15. SubscriberPaul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    The Stacks
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    30 Aug '12 02:05
    [i]Originally posted by greenpawn34

    All I want to do is set traps to mate people at chess, drink beer and get laid.[/b]
    Start the clan, and sign me up! We'll lose all our challenges but win the Forum game posting contest! One brilliant sac gets played through more than a 1000 pawn endings.
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