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  1. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    11 May '07 21:51 / 3 edits
    Korch – ih8sens

    The game started from position which arises after
    1.g4!? d5
    My opininon about Grob have been changed two times. At first when I was teen and I liked unortodox openings , I though that this opening white can get at least equal play in unstandart positions which arise from this opening. Later, when I have started to play more positional, I changed my mind and concluded that Grob is very dubious. But about two-three months ago once I did start analyse (with engine) possible lines after 1.e4 g5!!?? and concluded that its not so elementary for white to get something more real that small advantage. Then I though – “If black can afford playing 1…g5, why white cant play 1.g4 ?” After analyzing 1.g4 I concluded that this move is not so bad as its reputation and playable.
    2.h3
    In my opinion this move is much better than gambit move 2.Bg2.
    2….e5 3.Bg2 c6
    On 3…h5 white will respond 3.g5 and if 3…Qxg5 then 4.Bxd5.
    Interesting move is 3…Nc6 on which white can respond 4.Nc3 attacking d5. For example 4…Be6 5.d3 Qd7!? 6.Nf3 f6 (6…0-0-0?! 7.Ng5! +=) 7.a3 planning attack in queenside. I think that position is at least equal for white.
    Now black has solid centre, which white attacks in next move
    4.d4!
    Alternative 4.d3 Bd6 5.Nc3 Ne7 6.e4 =
    4….e4
    After 4….exd4 5.Qxd4 white will get small opening advantage attacking d4 with c4 or e4.
    5.c4
    Making pressure to d5
    5….Be6
    In well known game Basman – Keene, Manchester 1981 black did play 5…Bd6!? 6.Nc3 Ne7 7.g5 Be6 8.h4 Nf5 black got large advantage and won easily. After that game Keene declared that Grob is refuted, but this conclusion is not serious. - White should have play 7.Qb3! (instead of 7.g5?? and after 7….0-0 8.Bg5 f6 9.Bd2! white have some plus.
    6.Nc3 dxc4?!
    Why to give up the central pawn? After 6…Nf6 7.Qb3 Qb6 8.c5 Qxb3 9.axb3 Nbd7 10.b4 white would have slightly better position, but black position would be still playable.
    7.Nxe4?!
    After 7.Bxe4 Nf6 8.Bg2 white could start to move their central pawns and get advantage. I though that it does not matter playing 7.Nxe4 or 7.Bxe4, but I underrated my opponents reply.
    7….Bd5!
    Tie-up of knight on e4 making position more complicated.
    8.Bd2
    Played against check on b4 and offering pawn sacrifice.
    8….h5
    Making white to move their g-pawn which can weaken their kingside, but also restricts development of black kingside. – Knight on e7 or g6 usually are not so useful as on f6.
    After 8….Bxe4?! 9.Bxe4 Qxd4 10.Qc2 Nf6 11.Bf5! white would have dangerous initiative for pawn.
    8…Nd7 is also worth of consideration.
    9.g5 Na6 10.Qb1!
    I saw that after 10.Qc2 (protecting knight on e4 and preparing Nf3) attacking queen on b4 would be mindless, because after retry to b1 white will be able play a3 making knight return. I put my queen linking it with following plan:
    White is 1) defending knight on e4 and preparing 11.Nf3 2) planning to play b3 when black will have to take on b3 and then after axb3 white will get half-open a-file which will make risky castling queenside for black. Also 10.Qb1 is one of the forst recommendations of Rybka.
    10…f6?!
    Black should have prevent 11.Nf3 and play 10…Qe7. Position after 11.b3 cxb3 (11…b5?! 12.h4!+=) 12.axb3 is very complicated and seems to me very unclear – both sides need to find good plan how to develop their pieces in the best way. Rybka rates this position as equal.
    11.Nf3 Bd6?
    Position after 11…Qd7 12.gxf6 gxf6 (12…Nxf6? 13.Ne5!) 13.Nc3 0-0-0 was better for white but still playable for black. Now white is forcing line which gives dangerous attack with large advantage.
    12.Nxd6 Qxd6 13.Qg6+ Kd8 14.gxf6 Qxf6?
    Better was 14…gxf6 after which white should continue their attack with 15.Rg1! For example 15…Bf7 16.Qb1! with b3.
    After 14…Nxf6 15.Ne5 white will get decisive attack.
    15.Ne5!
    Perhaps my opponent overlooked this move.
    15….Qd8?
    Final mistake, but black is lost anyway. Some possible lines:
    1) 15….Rd8? 16.Bg5!
    2) 15…..Nc7? 16.Bb4+
    3) 15…Bf7 (perhaps the best)16.Qg3 Qe7 17.Rg1 h4 18.Qc3 with b3 – white will play on both flanks and will win due to better coordination of their pieces.
    16.Bxd5 Qxd5 17.e4
    According to engine 17.Rg1! is better , but also after 17.e4 white wins easily – queen cant move from e5 (except on d7 controlled by white knight) due to mate on f7. That was the reason why Black resigned 1-0
  2. Standard member Hindstein
    Finish Him!!!
    11 May '07 22:39
  3. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    11 May '07 23:18 / 1 edit
    I have typed wrong - in 13th black move king moves to f8 not d8.
  4. 11 May '07 23:55
    I almost lost to a guy 400 rating points lower to me in an OTB game. He played 1. g4. I hate these openings. I might post the game later on. I got a lucky shot after a few mismoves on his part.
  5. Standard member bannedplayer306509
    Best Loser
    12 May '07 01:59
    Hmm... I didn't get too many ! now did I

    Oh well.. I'll be knocking on your door for a rematch one of these decades.
  6. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    12 May '07 07:03
    Originally posted by ih8sens

    Oh well.. I'll be knocking on your door for a rematch one of these decades.
    No problem
  7. 12 May '07 07:47 / 2 edits
    Just glancing at the game, black didn't seem to have a plan other than occupying the long light-square diagonal with pawn pushes & should have played Nc6, Nf6 & key freeing move h5 early as possible.
    3...c6 is a structural mistake & by the central exchange & 7.Nxe4 white is looking strong, despite seemingly not being able to castle QS

    I think any specialised opening which may be weak but has a few strong defences is worth a try as a surprise strategy, especially OTB or if database suggestions wrongly favour weaker 1...d5 as opposed to 1...e5

    Black should immediately slap the move 2.h3!? with 2...h5! forcing either probably 3.g5 or 3.gxh5 with no plan to re-take immediately!

    After 3.g5 I suggest immediate 3...e5 & white looks dis-jointed after 4.Bg2...Qxg5, 5.Bxd5...Nf6 & black should develop solidly & castle 0-0-0 utilising the 1/2 open d-file

    When 3.gxh5 black can ignore the h5 pawn & dominate the center with 3...e5, then probably 4.Bg2 (continuing the Grob plan) & 4...Nc6, 5.Nc3...Nf6


    Black's early h5 then gxh5 with no intention of re-taking, but gaining a tempo to take the center:
    White to play
  8. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    12 May '07 08:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Korch
    My opininon about Grob have been changed two times. At first when I was teen and I liked unortodox openings , I though that this opening white can get at least equal play in unstandart positions which arise from this opening. Later, when I have started to play more positional, I changed my mind and concluded that Grob is very dubious. But about two-three month ...[text shortened]... ?” After analyzing 1.g4 I concluded that this move is not so bad as its reputation and playable.
    This looks about the time we played.

    I didn't put up enough of a fight as white to help convince you of this, did I? Perhaps even enough to show that if I'd had 200 rating points on you I could even have won.
  9. 12 May '07 08:27
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    Just glancing at the game, black didn't seem to have a plan other than occupying the long light-square diagonal with pawn pushes & should have played Nc6, Nf6 & key freeing move h5 early as possible.
    3...c6 is a structural mistake & by the central exchange & 7.Nxe4 white is looking strong, despite seemingly not being able to castle QS

    I think any ...[text shortened]...
    White to play
    [fen]r1bqkb1r/ppp2pp1/2n2n2/3pp2P/8/2N4P/PPPPPPB1/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 6[/fen]
    Agreed! Its good to see that there are chess players left in the Chess Forum. Unfortunately the grob in Fritzie speak does not get the bull off the ice. Whilst its proponents can hide behind the fact that they are winning against people ranked more than 200-400 points below them, they should play the grob against people closer to their rating and see. Or even better, play a 40 moves in 2 hour match versus your engine playing the grob and let us see the result after 6 or 8 games.
  10. 12 May '07 08:31
    Originally posted by z00t
    Agreed! Its good to see that there are chess players left in the Chess Forum.
    *shivers*
  11. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    12 May '07 08:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    Black should immediately slap the move 2.h3!? with 2...h5! forcing either probably 3.g5 or 3.gxh5 with no plan to re-take immediately!

    After 3.g5 I suggest immediate 3...e5 & white looks dis-jointed after 4.Bg2...Qxg5, 5.Bxd5...Nf6 & black should develop solidly & castle 0-0-0 utilising the 1/2 open d-file
    After 1.g4 d5 2.h3 h5 3.g5 e5 4.Bg2 Qxg5 5.Bxd5 Nf6 white can play 6.d3 and then 7.Bf3 with not bad position.
  12. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    12 May '07 08:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by z00t
    Agreed! Its good to see that there are chess players left in the Chess Forum. [b]Unfortunately the grob in Fritzie speak does not get the bull off the ice. Whilst its proponents can hide behind the fact that they are winning against people ranked more than 200-400 points below them, they should play the grob against people closer to their rating and see. Or ...[text shortened]... n 2 hour match versus your engine playing the grob and let us see the result after 6 or 8 games.[/b]
    I`m using Grob not only against much weaker opponents - Game 3337199

    I also using Grob reversed (Borg) against David Tebb - Game 3252236

    And what will prove games against engine if I`m definetly at least "200-400 points below " engine?
  13. 12 May '07 09:20 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Korch
    After 1.g4 d5 2.h3 h5 3.g5 e5 4.Bg2 Qxg5 5.Bxd5 Nf6 white can play 6.d3 and then 7.Bf3 with not bad position.
    Yes, what I was thinking was:
    1.g4...d5, 2.h3...h5, 3.g5...e5, 4.Bg2...Qxg5, 5.Bxd5...Nf6
    then as you say
    6.d3 preparing e5 & attacking Qg5
    6...Qg6 most attractive square
    7.Bf3...c6 preparing to clear for eventual 0-0-0
    8.e4...Be6 positional play
    9.Nc3...N(b)d7
    10.Bd2...0-0-0
    11.N(g)e2...Be7

    But that does look quite good for white with:
    12.Rg1...Qh7 to follow but what next for him?
    I can see my plan as black, to try to push on on the KS but I don't see any cohesive idea for white. Maybe counter on QS after un-gluing his 2 B's & Ne2?

    White to play
  14. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    12 May '07 09:55 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Squelchbelch
    Yes, what I was thinking was:
    1.g4...d5, 2.h3...h5, 3.g5...e5, 4.Bg2...Qxg5, 5.Bxd5...Nf6
    then as you say
    6.d3 preparing e5 & attacking Qg5
    6...Qg6 most attractive square
    7.Bf3...c6 preparing to clear for eventual 0-0-0
    8.e4...Be6 positional play
    9.Nc3...N(b)d7
    10.Bd2...0-0-0
    11.N(g)e2...Be7

    But that does look quite good for white with:
    12

    White to play
    [fen]2kr3r/pp1nbppq/2p1bn2/4p2p/4P3/2NP1B1P/PPPBNP2/R2QK1R1 w Q - 0 13[/fen]
    1) after 7...c6 white can play 8.Nc3 Be6 9.h4 Nbd7 10.Bg5 0-0-0 11.Qd2 with idea of 0-0-0 and starting make pressure on kingside.

    2) Why not 10.Nge2 (instead of 10.Bd2?!) ? After 10....0-0-0 11.Be3 white will be able to

    a) make 0-0-0 with pressure on kingside
    b) play on both flanks leaving king in center, what they can afford, because center is closed.
  15. 12 May '07 10:23
    Originally posted by Korch
    1) after 7...c6 white can play 8.Nc3 Be6 9.h4 Nbd7 10.Bg5 0-0-0 11.Qd2 woth idea of 0-0-0 and starting make pressutre on kingside.

    2) Why not 10.Nge2 (instead of 10.Bd2?!) ? After 10....0-0-0 11.Be3 white will be able to

    a) make 0-0-0 with pressure on kingside
    b) play on both flanks leaving king in center, what they can afford, because center is closed.
    Thanks for that
    Yes, your line for white does keep things a lot more active.
    I need to rethink my white moves but the plan for black stays pretty much the same.

    Difference in analysis between #11 player & #1355 = rather a lot!